Diana, Bodvar and all Focs:
I have to disagree with the Diana's most recent conclusion. She said,...
"...I think if we want to discuss freedom the brujo story should be our
starting point. If you take the Indian story as the core then Dynamic
quality becomes specifically freedom from complex social rules, and that's a
weak and misleading subset of the real thing."
I DO agree that freedom from social constraints is just one kind of freedom.
And the things you said about social stability being a pre-requisite for
intellectual freedom is certainly true. Society frees us from mere
biological survival. No doubt.
But I think the "Indian story" says alot more than you suggest. I'm assuming
you mean Dusenberry and the teepee trip. Those are the scenes that directly
precede our quote about freedom and order. Pirsig puts it there, I think,
because religous mysticism is associated with Dynamic Quality and DQ is the
"ultimate" source of freedom. The Indians have incorporated freedom into
their social values, just as the peyote ceremony itself is a part of their
culture...
The Indians had freedom in their social patterns, it was not an absence of
social patterns. The mystical peyote ceremony was not an anti-social thing
or unlawful thing at all. Quite the opposite. It is sanctioned and used by
the leading authority figures. That whole bit about freedom FROM society is
about conflict between the levels, rather than just two opposing sets of
social patterns.
Pirsig devles into to politics later in the book, that's for sure. And when
he discusses the 20th century, he's focused in on the idea that the
intellecual level is finally taking charge of things, but that it is a
flawed (SOM) intellect. And one of it's main flaws is the failure to
recognize the social level of values. That's where the decadence and
degeneracy come from. It's biology and intellect holding social values down
in that deadly crossfire. This flawed intellect has some Indian social
values in it, but they aren't seen as Indian or social. Europeans can talk
about freedom at the intellectual level, but its not really in their culture
or language, and since we are suspended in language and all that, there is
alot of confusion. That's why America follows the dictates of freedom only
sometimes.
And then there are the anti-intellectual reactionaries like Hitler, etc. All
of the stuff Pirsig includes, battle of the Victorians, WW I and all that,
is certainly about freedom and order too, but I think he's trying to tell us
that there is a continuing central conflict going on in the world. It's a
Pragmatic philosophy, among other things, and it explains alot. However, as
I said, the ultimate source of freedom is DQ and if we're going to really
get a grasp of everything else he says about freedom, I think we've got to
focus on that aspect.
Besides, politics can get so hopelessly complicated. The examples from
places like Rwanda and Afganistan, for example, aren't directly related to
this clash between Indian and European values. It seems that those issues
might be handled well by someone who knows all the ins and outs of
Colonialism and Cold War politics and its effect on third world cultures,
but that ain't me. Perhaps I could persuade you, dear reader, to limit
political analysis to Europe and the U.S.? Not that I wish to limit any
one's freedom, but we must have order. : ) Don't get me wrong, peyote and
politics aren't as far apart as one might think...
Andrew Harvey, who has studied mysticism for 25 years, born in India and
studied at Oxford, wrote a book about the world's mystical traditions called
"THE DIRECT PATH". In the book's conslucsion he writes,
"The consummation of the mystical path lies not in a seflish "freedom" from
reality or in any kind of magical domination of it but in a transparence to
the divine will, dedicated hunger to put its orders into effect in any
circumstances and against any odds, and a calm passion to put divine love
and its laws of radical equality, all embracing compassion and justice into
practice on every level of reality."
Yea, a dedicated hunger to put its orders in effect. I think we can see The
Brujo, Jesus and the Saints in this. Sometimes what motivates the
contrarians and outsiders is this same hunger, even if they don't know it.
Revolutionaries drive the whole thing, they're agents of DQ in human
societies. Intellect doesn't necessarily come into the picture. But it is
about freedom and order.
ANDREW HARVEY...
"I am always shocked when spiritual "seekers" tell me they do not read teh
newpapers or listen to the news on the radio or watch it on television: what
world do they imagine they are living in? It has never been more important
to be as informed as possible on what is happening: the media and the
internet open up to us unparalleled possibilities of mutual communication
and awareness that would be madness to waste."
I included this one just because there is a common misconception that
mystics don't have cable tv or read the papers. There's a common
misconception that mystics are disengaged from the world and don't fight
battles. But its not true.
Not really finished, but I gotta go. DMB
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