Mf'ers
Horse asked:
> Dave, please correct me if I've misinterpreted what you are saying but from the above it
> would appear that you believe that there is some problem with the belief that there are
> individuals and groups that set out to deliberately and cynically exploit other individuals and
> groups.
3WD
I have no problem with the concept that in our reality there are "individuals and groups that set
out to
deliberately and cynically exploit other individuals and groups" or even with calling those actions
"evil". What I do have a problem with is suggesting that this "evil" is primarily a characteristic of
capitalism and corporations. Indeed I would suggest that this characteristic is more prevalent in
political organizations, governments, and religions than in free market capitalism. But the more
important point I was trying to make is I believe the Zen concept of "One is All, All is One"
underlies the MoQ. And this makes the concept of individual values existing "divorced from" the
"Giant" patterns nonsense. We are all part of the Giant patterns, if a part of the Giant is evil, we
all share in that evil until it is transcended. Disengaging is not an option, name-calling and
finger-pointing seems to do nothing but incite individual or collective acts of violence, so I've
finally settled on the idea that little will change for the good until there is a fundamental shift
in the collective worldview.
Part of this fundmental shift is embodied understanding and accepting your comments that :
> Many humans (especially those imbued with 'Western' values) do not like to believe that
> there exists any other form of existence which surpasses the individual. The current cult of
> individualism confirms this, whilst conveniently forgetting that we are defined by our
> relationships within the group framework. Individuals can only be valued as individuals within
> the framework of the group. This doesn't mean that an individual has to be subservient to the
> group or that the group will necesarily supress an individual.
HORSE
> Two names (and their corporations) immediately spring to mind:
>
> Bill Gates & Microsoft
> Rupert Murdoch & Newscorp
3WD
As an Apple user for nearly fifteen years I almost feel that the people who chose DOS during that
period of time got what they deserved, the majority made a free choice to buy Bill's junk, made MS
into a Giant, and now are whining because it is one. That being said, if Apple had dominated, Steve
Jobs would probably be facing charges of both a hardware and software monopoly! Are capitalism and
democracy as currently implemented, perfect? Certainly not! They're just better than any of the
existing or proposed alternatives. So when you say:
> I make no bones whatsoever about being a vocal part of the group you identify above - to do
> otherwise would be to ignore a massive body of evidence and my own experience.
I do not deny that the body of evidence is massive, what tries my patience is all the talking
followed by so little free market action. An example that I'm most familiar with is the
"environmental ", "alternative energy", "green building", sustainable development" movement(s). All
of these emerged and have become more vocal, and militant, and violent during the last 75 years and
there is a massive body of evidence that a significant amount of what is being said is essentially
true or real. But if we examined the finances of those espousing these paths we would find that in
all but the greenist of greens when they personally voted with their checkbooks they opted for gold
plated faucets and plush pile carpet over solar panels and composting toilets a majority of the
time. So that in the end the amount of environmental damage done by talking, writing, and studying
the problem was and is several magnitudes greater than the amount saved by those who adopted the
path. Embodied in the " cult of individualism" is also the "cult of otherism" who's primary creed
is " If those Others (Giants) would only clean up their act this world would be a much better place."
" All this world is mad except me and thee, and sometimes I'm not so sure about thee."
3WD
>From More often I smell the odour.
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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