Bodvar and everyone,
You wrote
>I browsed the "menu", but found that the
>SOM recipe had been used always - again: not that I knew about
>any subject-object metaphysics, yet, now looking back I see that it
>was my discontent.
[Bobby]You have the hallmarks of an explorer - a deep seated discontent.
All you have to do is beware of self-satisfaction, and constantly
expand your horizons. For a true explorer there can only be peace in
restlessness and an harmony in motion. So you should set sail for
other shores and I am sure you will find many treasures.(I mean a
cross-cultural comparison of values that Pirsig suggests )
>So I sort of disagree with Pirsig that there is no "food" with the
>menu, and with you Bobby that you have to go home to make it.
>The underlaying metaphysical food we are force-fed in our younger
>days is with us wherever we go. And the SOM gave me - at least -
>bad digestion.
Metaphysics (of any kind) is always only a framework to provide meaning
to our experiences (food ), and Pirsigs warning will ALWAYS be valid until
we can find a way to communicate our experiences DIRECTLY - which I doubt
is ever possible. Especially so when we are force-fed with the same
recepies and not allowed (or given the kitchen space ) to try our our
own recepies. So we keep eating the same food again and again till some
of us feel sick of it all , and even prefer to go hungry at times.
>"...useful for society"? Is that moq's Social Level"? No, I guess you
>mean (Western) Civilization and its values - Christian values as
>they usually add here when this issue is raised. What can devour it
>except for despotism and again my SOL-idea is fortified; Only
>social value can corrupt intellectual value and as despotism is
>social value refined .... (our) civilization is equal to the Intellectual
>level.
No I don't mean Western Civilization alone. The same malaise is widespread
all over the world . Societies in China and Japan are have strong
undercurrents of discontent and in countries like India and Pakistan
there is a near collapse of values and morals. The west has positive
intellectual values but these are mired in excessive rationality ,and
more significantly the structure of these values has dangerous faultlines.
>The very point I made above. Hitler's despotism was social value's
>last stand in Europe and thus he was evil compared to Einstein. I
>don't mean E's scientific achivement, but as an intellectual value
>representative.
I still insist that lack of "moral force" leads to despotism and not
the other way round.The "moral force " comes before and not after-
Pirsig is also quite clear about this.
>"Everything dynamic necessarily DQ"?. I wish you would provide examples.
The rise and fall of the third reich is itself an example of a dynamic
process lacking Quality that was inherently unsustainable - even Hitler
had enough dynamic intellegence to forsee its unsustainability - he
himself predicted years before he seized power that an attack on Russia
would also mean an end to Germany. When in power he became blinded by
his own despotic self-importance and took a cheap shot just so that
he could bring the World to its knees before him , even if it was for
a brief moment of self glory. Where does despotic self-importance come
from ? - primarily from a lack of "moral force".
Therefore anything dynamic lacking Quality cannot sustain because it
is without Dynamic Quality. This will manifest as invisible faultlines
in the structure of static patterns.
>I am very interested in what similar metaphysics you mean. Pirsig
>speaks of the quality idea as the oldest one there is, is it
>something along those lines?
Most others are Metaphysics of Reality.
Reality can be defined as the sum total of all the events that take
place in the Universe.
Quality is a subset of Reality - that is the sum of all Quality
events.
Quality is the timeless essence - what most cultures call Soul.
Existence in the form of individual selfs is for the purpose of
the refinement or progression of individual souls or in other
words for the individual to Create Quality.
In most other cultures instead of metaphysically dividing Soul(Quality),
which many cultures feel should be left indivisible, instead
Reality is metaphysically split into two counterparts :
ANIMATE or SPIRIT & INANIMATE or MATTER
These can also be termed as Dynamic Reality & Static Reality.
Since Quality is a subset of Reality, I will leave it to you figure
out the relationships between the respective counterparts.
Dillon
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