Hello everyone
Marco wrote:
>
> MARCO REVIEWS DAN'S PLATONIC DIALOGUE
Thank you for the wonderful review of my short essay, Marco! I really
enjoyed your comments. Please see my replies below.
Prefix:
> Marco
>> Dan
>
> Dan,
>
> let me say I'm very glad to read a "platonic dialogue" on these pages. A
> very ancient and effective way to MAKE philosophy.
Hi Marco
Glad you enjoyed it. I didn't really sit down with any aforethought on
writing "Breakfast with Denny". The essay simply appeared on the screen
in front of my eyes. There are some rough edges and it needs some
filling in but who knows? might make a nice screenplay someday?
>
> In you intro you wrote:
>
> > Personally I feel democracy here in the US and that form of
> > government called democracy in other parts of the world are not at all
> > the same but I am a poor judge, having never lived or even traveled
> > abroad. But I had breakfast with a friend about a week and a half ago
> > and had an opportunity to pose some questions to him that are pertinent
> > to this month's topic.
> >
>
> Well, I think the differences are in the different backgrounds of every
> nation. But the principles are the same, at least in western Europe. The
> idea of the independence of the three powers (Legislative, Executive,
> Judiciary); the basic freedoms (speech, movement, opinion, assembly... );
> an electoral system to choose the leaders.
On the surface this is certainly true. Here are a couple differences
which I may be hazy on: here in the States we do not use majority vote
to determine elections while from what I understand many other nations
do use such a system. As far as other freedoms one of our basic rights
built into the Constitution is the right to bear arms. Again, I am not
really that familiar with firearm laws in other nations but from what I
understand they are not so liberal. Please correct me if I am wrong. The
right to bear arms stands fundamental to government by the people, for
the people and may be one of our most Dynamic rights here in the States
for it guarantees the people power to overthrow government should it
become that which the people no longer deem in their best interests.
>
> Then there are many variants: about the balance between the central and
> peripheral power; about the electoral rules; about the role of the state in
> the welfare system.... but these are secondary aspects.
>
> However, if I well understand, your intro wants to tell us that the coming
> story is not necessarily valid worldwide. It's a dialogue about American
> society. It's on all of us to apply it to our national situation.
Dan:
I think you sum it up very well here.
>
> And now let's come to the literary part of your post. For some minutes I
> wondered if your story is "real" or not (sorry for my very somish behavior
> :-). The Dan/Denny split reminds me the Pirsig/Phaedrus.... then I reached
> the conclusion that the only reality I can perceive in the story is its
> intellectual value. And I found it good.....
Dan:
Is the story real? Hmmm, I will leave that for you all to decide. :)
Have you figured out who "Denny" might be yet?
> Marco:
> I - The individual and the system
>
> The encounter of two persons acting separate social roles. Dan, the "normal
> person" the voter, one who chooses someone to be the steerer. Denny, the
> "elected", one of the steerers. Not the captain himself, but one of his
> staff.
>
> > The friend I breakfasted with is now holding down a very high ranking
> > post in Washington D.C. after serving many years as a congressman at
> > both state and federal levels. You'll see him standing behind the
> > President when he makes his State of the Union address. It's a little
> > weird to have breakfast with him now since there is a contingent of
> > black suited men always surrounding him where ever he goes but he still
> > comes to the same greasy spoon restaurant in our mutual home town of
> > Yorkville whenever he is home.
> >
> > He was my high school history teacher... oh let me see now... about,
> > Christ, has it really been almost thirty years now? yeah. It has. Later
> > our sons went to school together and I saw him a lot at school
> > functions. Still later I coached his boys in Little League. So we go
> > back. Now, normally I detest eating alone. But something made me stop on
> > this particular morning... maybe weakness from hunger since I hadn't
> > eaten much for the last couple days (I sometimes just forget to eat when
> > I am really pondering)... and the place was nearly deserted, being early
> > Sunday morning and all. So I stopped in for a quick bite.
> >
>
> The bodyguards (a sort of Greek Chorus), here physically represent the
> separation between the two roles. When you enter the control room, you are
> not the same as you were before.
Well I can tell you those men with Denny are strictly business; Secret
Service agents assigned to protect him, don't you know. Silent yet
watchful; alert to every action. Intimidating at first and yet somehow
they come to blend right in with the furniture. Weird. You don't even
notice them after a few minutes.
>
> > In the corner booth, when I walked inside, sat a group of six or seven
> > men and in the center of them I immediately recognized my old friend.
> > Our eyes met and he waved me over. While I walked closer, he leaned
> > across and whispered something in the ear of the black suited man
> > sitting next to him. The man looked me up and down, nodded, and got up
> > without a word along with three of the other men to give me room to sit
> > down. That contingent moved to the booth right behind us while three
> > others remained at the table in complete silence.
>
> II - The limits of truth
>
> Even if the encounter was real, there's no way to grasp the exact event. Dan
> himself, who was there, can't.
True, that.
>
> > I will try and
> > remember our conversation with my friend as best I can and recount it
> > for you though of course I didn't write it down at the time and it may
> > not have went exactly like this. My friend is a big bear of a man with
> > thick snowy white hair and a quick smile. He stood and we shook hands.
> >
>
> III - The Power
>
> Here Denny sounds very self-confident, while Dan was a little timorous. It's
> clear that socially the leader is Denny. He's a celebrity, so he leads the
> social game. And he offers the breakfast, that is a very ancient way to take
> a social vantage point.
>
> > "Dan! Gosh its good to see you again! Come on and sit down. You want
> > some breakfast? Government's buying."
> >
>
> IV - The social conversation
>
> Talking about the family, the old times... not very intellectual. But the
> first role of language is social: firstly it's necessary to break the ice.
> Only in a second time the intellect will raise when a solid base of social
> patterns will be there to support it.
>
> > "Oh yeah! Sounds good. It's so good to see you too Denny! But jeeze, I
> > see you all the time now on tv. So it doesn't seem as long, but its been
> > at least 15 years since we last spoke, hasn't it?"
> >
> > "Where does the time go? How's the boys?"
> >
> > "Great. I got grand kids now. Five of them and another on the way. And
> > how're your boys? I just saw Josh a couple weeks ago. He stopped by to
> > see my Josh."
> >
> > "Well, you know kids. I don't get to see them much now since I spend so
> > much time away. Josh got himself into a little scrape with the law. I'm
> > sure you heard about that."
> >
> > "Yeah. He spoke of it.
>
> V - From social to intellectual
>
> The conversation turns to the intellectual level. Denny apparently is at the
> top, but Dan's question re-maps the whole scene. The value of Denny's role
> is socially high-level, but when you begin an ethical discussion, here come
> the first doubts.
Yes! Bottom line this is an ethical discussion more so than political.
Evolutionary values only come into play when using a value based
metaphysics such as the MOQ and not in our normal everyday classical
outlook on life. Though there was nothing said at all concerning
metaphysics the foundational basis of all discussion lies upon a bedrock
of value recognition, which begins when we stop seeing morality as
something like the Ten Commandments, something set in stone and forever
immutable. Denny represents the social level patterns of values we call
rules and yet he also recognizes evolution as a big part of his ever
changing point of view, which revolves around doubt.
>
> > Tell me Denny. Is it worth all the time you spend
> > away from your family to do what you do?"
> >
>
> In the meanwhile, the social life goes on, blind to the value of the
> intellectual discussion.
>
> > The waitress appeared and took our order... eggs over easy for me, with
> > sausage and biscuits. He ordered steak and eggs. The three men sitting
> > there silent simply said "the special".
> >
>
> VI - The Giant
>
> When two intellects find some minute of relative freedom from their social
> roles, they can recognize the "crazy beast" which is devouring their
> biological and social lives. And the more you are high ranked in the social
> environment, the more your individuality is prey of the beast.
>
> > "Well, I think about that a lot, Dan. You know the boys were grown when
> > I took this job but I really didn't realize how intense Washington can
> > be. How devouring. Every day I get up and have to motivate myself to go
> > and fight to tame this wild crazy beast that we call a government. Well,
> > taming it isn't really what I do. I try and pacify the head of the beast
> > into not biting off it's own tail to spite itself. And if I can do that,
> > I consider my job well done. Do you get what I'm saying? I know it's
> > hard for someone who's never been there to understand."
> >
>
> Dan, like a modern Socrates, seems to feign his ignorance and asks simple
> questions to provoke Denny to pursue the thread.
>
> > "But isn't the government just people, like you and me?"
> >
>
> Denny is glad to answer... he seems like a person which has few occasions to
> talk so freely from an intellectual point of view. Usually slave of his
> role, he has found this Break-Fast as a temporary escape from the Giant.
>
> > "That's what I thought, way back when I used to teach school." A smile
> > crept over his face. "Remember how I always kept catching you smoking in
> > the boys room?"
> >
> > "And you'd never turn us in. Not once."
> >
> > "That was my vision of government then. Now I would turn you in
> > immediately and think nothing more about it. So what does that say?"
> >
> > "You're not serious."
> >
>
> Idealism can provoke mistakes. The current Denny recognizes that social
> rules are necessary. The real freedom is not to fuck the system by smoking
> at school.....
Perhaps. Yet that same idealism which allowed a bond between teacher and
student to develop also allows this discussion to develop, so has the
idealism really been lost at all?
>
> > "Oh but I am! You see, back then I was idealistically naive."
> >
> > "You mean all the stuff you taught in high school..."
> >
> > "Was crap. I simply did not know how government really worked until I
> > became part of it, you see. But when I became part of government I
> > realized idealism does not work because everyone has their own personal
> > ideal they are striving towards. The name of the game in government, in
> > successful government, is to compromise your ideals in such a fashion
> > that they are within reach and yet to embrace the ideals of your peers
> > at the same time, which is to say you want to be everything to everyone.
> > We all start out in civil service like that. But soon we begin to see
> > the reason for the rules that are in place... and rules cannot be broken
> > without the entire system crumbling. So you see I was wrong not to turn
> > you boys in for breaking the smoking ban.
>
> It's now time for Denny to recognize Dan's peer intellectual dignity. So he
> is now asking for Dan's point of view. Denny's smile (very social) is there
> to admit that on the intellectual level the relative social positions have a
> limited value. It's a sort of surrender of the social Denny.
Yet the bodyguards stay in place...
>
> > Of course we're talking nearly
> > thirty years ago and we both know things were different then. Maybe my
> > point of view has evolved, what do you think?" He smiled and shoveled a
> > large forkful of eggs into his mouth while looking at me.
> >
> > "So you're saying government is all about following rules..."
> >
>
> But the intellectual Denny is also very strong. His knowledge of the system
> is very valuable at the intellectual level. That's because the first duty of
> intellect is to understand the social in order to dominate it.
Again, this is so only from the perspective of a value-based metaphysics
like the MOQ and not at all times so recognized in every day life. Yet
Denny is as you say extremely strong both intellectually and socially
and has a seemingly innate sense about value and quality that we all
share allowing us to form agreements with value-based metaphysics
without consciously knowing it. Does the bug who looks like a leaf
actually know it looks like a leaf?
>
> > "Oh no," Denny snorted, with a small cloud of eggs spraying spraying
> > from his chin. "The rules ARE government. That is what I never realized
> > until I became part of it."
> >
> > "Because people come and go but the rules stay."
>
> In the following few lines, Denny finally explains the Giant.
>
> > "Well, yeah, there's that. But that isn't really what I'm driving at."
> > He dipped his toast in his egg yolk and took a bite. "Rules are rules
> > only as long as we respect them and government is what it is only as
> > long as we respect it."
> >
>
> VII - The struggle.
>
> To this point, Dan has received this sort of revelation from Denny. Being
> not part of the system, his view is to a certain extent more free. He wants
> to understand as possible as he can, in order to give a better answer. He
> can't be satisfied by Denny's vision in which it seems that everything is
> reduced to a static set of rules we must respect.
>
> > "But is our government the best it can be right now?"
> >
> > Denny forked a piece of steak into his mouth and chewed thoughtfully.
> > "No, of course it isn't, and hopefully our government will never be the
> > best it can be. You know why?"
> >
> > "I would think we'd want the best it can be."
> >
> > "If our government was the best it could be, where would we go then?"
> >
>
> This sentence sounds strange to Dan. Compared to Denny, he is still an
> idealist, and he thinks it's always possible a movement towards Good. He
> well remembers the lessons of a philosopher who said once that Good is a
> noun, and that excellence, "Arte", must be our goal.
>
> > "I don't get you. Let's just take one area as a for instance... say
> > human rights. Shouldn't we as the people expect our government to do the
> > best it can to protect all human rights? And if the government fails in
> > that, don't the people have the right to rise up and overthrow that
> > government? Isn't that what our constitution guarantees us all as
> > American citizens?"
> >
>
> But this is also what Denny is talking about. He's just saying that this
> dynamic duty is not easy, as the government has also the static duty to cool
> down the crazy horse. The most important aspect is that the current rules
> don't deny that someone, even a "normal person" like Dan can come and
> undertake the dynamic battle ... at least he can try.
>
> > "Well, my gut tells me that yes, we as a nation could do better when it
> > comes to human rights, even here in our own country. And perhaps the
> > people do have a right to expect the government to do more in that
> > particular area. But if someone really feels strongly about that, they
> > can run for office and really try to make a difference. That is what's
> > so great about this country compared to any other I've visited, and I've
> > been to quite a few countries over the last few years."
> >
> > "You're right. If someone feels strongly enough about issues there is
> > always the option of running for office. But take someone like me. Hell,
> > Denny, you know me and you've known me for years. I'll never run for
> > office and no one would vote for me if I did, at least if they were in
> > their right mind."
> >
> > "You give yourself too little credit, Dan. You know, I have breakfast
> > with the President of the United States on a weekly basis and here we
> > are sitting having breakfast too."
> >
>
> VIII - Morals
>
> Dan accepts the point of view of Denny. But still he goes on asking. Ok,
> everyone can run for office, but the consequent question is: "why?".
>
> > "I just think what you're saying is a cop out. Tell me, why did you run
> > for office, the first time?"
> >
> > "I wanted to do just what you said. Make a difference."
> >
> > "And have you?"
> >
>
> Denny's vision is of a strong impossibility to change effectively the course
> of the world. It can't be the job of one man. Ideals, intellectual patterns,
> are not carried by one only human being as they are not in one's mind. They
> are more ancient of every existing human being and will last after the
> death of every currently alive human being. The contribution of one single
> man is like the contribution a rain drop can give to the tide of an ocean.
"Quality is not a thing. It is an event." So are intellectual patterns
of value independent entities floating around just waiting to happen to
someone like a drop of rain falling on their head?
>
> > "I used to think so but lately I wonder if any one person can really
> > change the tide of where our culture is headed."
> >
> > "Moralistically speaking, you mean?"
> >
> > "Well yes, there's that to consider."
> >
> > "But doesn't it all start with a good moral basis?"
> >
> > "Government, you mean?"
> >
> > "Well, the drive to be part of government. Do you see your peers as
> > people who genuinely wish to serve others, or do you see them as
> > self-serving?"
> >
> > "You could make a case for either scenario, Dan. There's good and bad in
> > Congress just like everywhere. When I was a teacher and you were in
> > school, there were good and bad teachers, right?"
> >
> > "And you knew that too?"
> >
> > "I worked with them. Of course I knew it. But there was nothing to be
> > done. It's much the same in Congress."
> >
> > "But now you have more power so you can do more, right?"
> >
> > "In order to wield power a man has to court favors from powerful allies.
> > Any man, it doesn't matter who. Every great leader has been a great
> > leader because of the powerful allies they had backing them. I'm no
> > different. And when you have powerful allies they have to be placated in
> > some fashion or they can turn on you in an instant."
> >
> > "So the ideals you came into the job with were not your own!"
> >
> > "Now you got it."
> >
>
> IX - Majority, minority, and the capital punishment.
>
> Dan is slowly entering the whole game. The discussion has become very
> serious. They are going straight to the key.
>
> > "And they were not the will of the majority, either."
> >
> > Denny finished off his eggs and wiped his plate with the remaining piece
> > of toast, took a bite and looked at me with his most serious expression.
> >
> > "The will of the majority is a farce. Democracy has nothing to do with
> > that. Hell Dan, look at the last presidential election. Only forty nine
> > percent of registered voters voted. So if democracy is the will of the
> > majority, there would have been no election at all. No. That is the
> > biggest misconception I think Europeans and other foreigners have of
> > American democracy. It is not now, nor has it ever been, concerned with
> > the will of the majority.
>
> The great part is done. The system has been disassembled and reassembled and
> now it's more clear how does it work. To this point, it's possible to look
> at particular issues with different eyes. One for all, the hot issue of
> capital punishment, that distinguishes the USA from the other democracies.
Is capital punishment and our right to bear arms in this country linked
to our preconditioned "wild west" values? Perhaps.
>
> > Look at our capital punishment here in
> > America. Why do we still have capital punishment on our books when all
> > the other highly developed countries do not?"
> >
> > "I always thought it was the will of the majority."
> >
> > "Got nothing to do with democracy at all. Listen. When we discuss
> > legislation in Congress, I have yet to hear a congressman say it is in
> > the interest of the majority. No. It is the minorities that get
> > preferential treatment, if anything."
> >
>
> The will of the majority is just an excuse. Sometimes it's taken as input
> for some decision, but in many occasions it's not like that. Democratic
> decisions are very far from being taken by the Demos. The capital punishment
> for the USA is a social behavior that comes from the background of the
> nation.
>
> > "So why capital punishment?"
> >
> > "If you want my honest opinion, Dan, it's a throwback to the wild west.
> > Really. Crimes, heinous crimes, were dealt with swiftly and harshly back
> > then and I think America will always have a little of that Cowboy and
> > Indian stuff in her."
> >
> > "So there will always be capital punishment?"
> >
> > "Oh I didn't say that, though I believe it."
> >
> > "The revenge factor."
> >
> > "Huh?"
> >
> > "Isn't that what the wild west mentality is all about? Revenge?"
> >
> > "Sure."
> >
> > "An eye for an eye and all that old testament stuff. Is there no chance
> > for an evolution of values taking our country away from this
> > overwhelming need to revenge wrongs? Or is that just part of human
> > nature?"
> >
> > Denny wiped his mouth and sipped his coffee before answering.
> >
> > "I honestly can't answer that. Right now, with the mood of the country,
> > I would answer no, there is no chance. And why would we want to change?
> > Wouldn't that give every criminal license to kill and rob who ever they
> > wanted?"
>
> X - The value of deviation
>
> Revenge is part of American culture, Denny says, so an America without
> revenge maybe is not America. But Dan is not quite satisfied. He holds that
> to a certain extent a system, in order to evolve, must bear some deviance.
> Maybe the old Denny, the teacher Denny was able to understand, but the
> current Denny, with his intellect fully immersed in the current social
> context, seems to lack of a long distance view.
>
> >
> > "Isn't such behavior deviant? As a rule?"
> >
> > "Not necessarily. Consider crimes of passion, for example."
> >
> > "Yet we tend to exact less revenge in a crime of passion."
> >
> > "So you're going the crime is a disease route."
> >
> > "Oh not at all. Deviant behavior is not a disease, per se. It may be an
> > evolutionary route to that which will someday be better but right now we
> > as a culture fail to take that point of view."
> >
> > "I don't get you, Dan."
> >
>
> The Dan's point of view, that is more free, can find in the past some
> interesting example of the slow evolutionary process of universe. We are
> part of the process, so we can perceive it only if we just stop for a while.
> It's like to watch a race: only who stands still can have its global vision.
>
> > "Well, take for instance the American Revolution. The Monarchy in
> > England no doubt looked upon the insurrection in the American Colonies
> > as being lead by deviants to be quelled, put in prison or shot outright,
> > correct?"
> >
> > "Perhaps."
> >
> > "A war was fought."
> >
> > "Yes, ok. I see what you're saying. But I still don't see the
> > relevance."
> >
> > "We with our limited capacity to forecast the future should be very
> > hesitant to label any member of society as beyond rehabilitation.
> > Hesitant to the point of repealing capital punishment."
> >
>
> XI - Conclusion ?
>
> Finally Dan has partly overwhelmed his old teacher. Denny recognizes the
> value of Dan's vision and asks him if it's possible to prosecute their
> intellectual connection. The breakfast is over, everyone must go back to
> their occupations, and the ocean's tide will not be changed by a 10 minutes
> discussion.
>
> But there's a small hope. Today technology give us a better chance to be
> part of the game. Every normal person like Dan can interact with the Giant,
> and the electoral date is not the only occasion. The main thing is to be
> informed and be part of the intellectual level as well as we can. Just to
> give our small contribution to the tide. Maybe it will not change the story,
> but it's the best reason to live.
Opportunity is like a little flower laying in the middle of our path.
Most of us simply trod over it leaving it bruised and battered, laying
there for the next passerby to perhaps pick up and treasure. But every
once in a while we happen along and for no particular reason we stop and
pick up the little flower of opportunity and nurture it and it grows and
grows until the little flower has become all of reality and we can no
longer imagine life without it. But then we forget there are always
little flowers of opportunity laying in our paths...
>
> > "You know, Dan, I need someone like you I could shoot some ideas off
> > from time to time. Do you mind if I email you?"
> >
> > "Yeah, do that Denny. Let's keep in touch."
> >
> > "I really have to go, but it's been great talking with you again."
> >
> > "It really has. And thank the government for breakfast when you get back
> > to DC."
> >
> > "You know I will. Take care Dan.
> >
> > "Denny, its been real."
>
> ----
>
> Nothing else to add, Dan. Just thanks. And thank also Denny from me, the
> next time you meet him.
>
> Marco.
I will. And thank you again for your comments, Marco.
Dan
------- End of forwarded message -------
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