Bo and Jonathen
Bo wrote:
> I don't think we should become so esoteric, we can safely keep
> talking about objects and subjects. (re. up/down). According to
> classical MoQ, inorganic and biological value can be regarded as
> objects. Magnus and I are not happy with this, but what Magnus'
> alternative is I haven't fully understood. Mine is that the Intellectual
> level is the S/O division itself.
Do you mean that all intellectual patterns are subjects and all other
patterns are objects? In that case I disagree. For example, I consider
ideas to be intellectual patterns and I consider myself to be the
subject when I observe an idea, which leaves the idea as the object.
> A littlle weandering must be allowed. I had hoped that Magnus -
> upon returning from his "sommarlov" would have answered if he
> agrees with Jonathan and 3WD about the subject/object divide
> which according to the two runs vertical through the complete Q
> level "building". This I anticipate in breathless suspense.
Time to breathe.
I agree, partly (of course :). I took a closer look at Jonathans quote
from '98:
<<<
Pirsig hasn't really done away with the SO at all, but has incorporated
it into his MOQ. If we consider subject as the observer and object as
the observed (things that happen), Pirsig has created multiple
non-exclusive subjects. The observer observes at the molecular level, or
is an organism observing at the biological level, or a society observing
at the social level etc. Thus subject and object become relative terms.
Objectivity thus also becomes relative - (-: depending, of course, on
how you look at it :-).
>>>
Pirsig has not created multiple non-exclusive subjects. The reason is that
in the MoQ, this "things that happen" you mention, *is* ultimate reality.
Things that happen *is* quality events. There's no way two different subjects
can observe the same event because there's no such thing as a box in which
"things happen" that subjects of different levels can observe.
Once again. The quality event is experience which is ultimate reality.
The MoQ universe consists of events, not of substance. Quality events
are unique, no two subjects can observe the same object.
A subject - object pair is created by each quality event.
But apart from this, I do think the levels are divided vertically by
a subject/object split. However, it's not a rigid split. You can't
split each level into a subject and an object half. Each quality
event produces one subject pattern and one object pattern, but the
subject pattern is only the subject from its point of view. The
other pattern is the subject from its point of view. Imagine a
twin star system, both stars rotate around a common central point.
Star A consider itself to be the subject and values the vicinity
of star B, which is the object from star A's point of view,
and vice versa.
Magnus
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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