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Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:05:59 -0500
From: 3dwavedave <dlt44@ipa.net>
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To: moq_focus@moq.org
Subject: Re: MF PROGRAM TOPIC - August 2001
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All
The program is:
> The statement made by Phaedrus of ZAMM (Chp.19) that Quality does not >
reside in the material world is readily accepted, but the rest of it - that
it doesn't reside in the mind - seems more obscure. What does it mean that
Quality is not of mind?
First I think it would be useful to have a recap of the issue in
Pirsig's Zen words.
"...the English facility presented him with a reasonable question, "Does
this undefined 'quality' of yours exist in the things we observe" they
asked. " Or is it subjective, existing only in the observer?"....
[And then after exploring ways to attack the question he ask]
How could he say whether quality was mind or matter when there was no
logical clarity as to what was mind and what was matter in the first place?
And so: he rejected the left horn. Quality is not objective, he said. It
doesn't reside in the material world.
Then: he rejected the right horn. Quality is not subjective, he said. It
doesn't reside merely in the mind.
And finally, Phaedrus ... went straight between the horns of the
subjectivity objectivity dilemma and said that Quality is neither a part
of mind nor is it a part of matter. It is a third entity which is
independent of the two. "
[Then a few pages later]
Quality is not a thing. It is an event.
[a few sentences more then]
This means that Quality is not just the result of the collision between
the subject and the object. The very existence of subject and object is
deduced from the Quality event. The Quality event is the cause of the
subjects and the objects, which are then mistakenly presumed to be the
cause of the Quality!
[next paragraph]
"The sun of quality," he wrote, " does not revolve around the subjects
and objective of our existence. It does not just passively illuminate
them. It is not subordinate to them in any way. It has created them.
They are subordinate to it."
[Which is the point that Mangus was trying to make to Jonathan last
month but which they couldn't come to an understanding on.]
3WD
[my comments on the issues later]
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