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Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:02:24 -0700
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From: "Valence" <valence10@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_focus@moq.org>
References: <200110032308.AAA09193@mill.venus.co.uk>
Subject: Re: MF Individual freedom
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:03:21 -0400
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Hey,
So the question is:
Is the individual's freedom from society a mean or an end of the
intellectual level?
Assuming that levels employ "means" and "ends"....
If individual freedom is a means to a greater end... what would the
greater end be??? Higher Quality? That seems to be a grand but
uninformative answer. Maybe something more practical...
Intellect requires the free exchange of ideas as a necessary
condition
to its survival (this is why totalitarians love burning books and
controlling the media). Pirsig lists as essential, "Freedom of speech;
freedom of assembly, of travel; trial by jury; habeas corpus; government
by
consent" (notice that these are all culled from the US Constitution,
mainly
the Bill of Rights... however, Pirsig neglects to include a few
noteworthy
ones... rights against unreasonable searches and seizures, the right to
bear
arms, to equal protection under the law, to due process of law).
Several of
the rights he specifically mentions (speech, assembly, travel) seemed
geared
towards to encouraging intellectual exchanges and open and forums for
the
debate of ideas. Trial by jury and Habeus Corpus rights help to
maintain
the integrity of the Intellectual process when the consequences are
greatest--- namely, when a person's other freedoms are at stake.
Galileo is my personal favorite example of how a society without
these
basic freedoms chokes off its Intellectual vitality. He had no free
speech
rights and so could not say that the Earth revolved around the sun.
There
was no jury of his peers at his trial for heresey.
Given these initial thoughts, I'm tempted to conclude that an
individual's freedom from society is a mean of Intellect towards the end
of
its own survival... Freedom is an Intellectual self-defense mechanism
that
is imposed over Society to insure that Intellect isn't choked off by the
same Society that is required to support it.
Of course, that's just a first thought...
rick
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan B. Marder <jonathan.marder@newmail.net>
To: <moq_focus@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 3:48 AM
Subject: MF Individual freedom
> Hi all,
>
> >Is the individual freedom from the society a mean
> >or an end of the intellectual level?
>
> I always seem to start off by attacking the question;-)
> In this case the question implies that individual freedom is an
> intellectual pattern.
> Just because Pirsig says it does not mean that it should go
> unquestioned.
>
> IMO, individual freedom is a SOCIAL pattern.
>
> I think that my point is demonstrated by Pirsig's own favourite example
> - Native Americans - to demonstrate the point. The way Pirsig describes
> the intellectual level, it is something that evolved under special
> conditions and in specific societies. I think that there is a strong
> argument that the intellectual level AS WE KNOW IT is not represented in
> Native American society. Otherwise, Pirsig would have surely laboured
> the point. On the other hand, that society traditionally values
> individual freedom very highly.
>
> What Pirsig does in Lila is to rationalise the benefits of valuing
> individual freedom. The only thing that might be considered an
> intellectual pattern is this rationalization. Then again, I wonder what
> the Indians would make of it!
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
>
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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