Re: MF Discussion Topic for December 2003

From: Patrick van den Berg (
Date: Mon Dec 08 2003 - 00:50:32 GMT

  • Next message: Sam Norton: "Re: MF Discussion Topic for December 2003"

    Dear MF starter Sam and other deepdivers,

    My view: Intellect is like the hammer and the nail. Or rather, the
    intellect is a robot or machine handling the hammer and the nail. 'What'
    does the skilled manipulation is always beyond grasp. If the thought
    points to an 'actor' (that is, what does the skilled manipulation, the
    'unit'), it's not the actor itself, but merely the actor of the past
    objectified as a thought. (One can perhaps view the intellect as
    'thoughts and it's products: other thoughts')
    Hence (because the actor never sees itself) there's always an
    uncertainty in the behavior of the intellect, and in the discrete or
    continuous interactions between the other levels in general. This
    uncertainty drives the levels, and uncertainty maybe a fundamental part
    of Dynamical Quality.

    If that which drives the intellect could fully know itself, it would be
    fully certain in it's actions. A form of complete determinism. Hence
    there could be no feeling of being a choosing agent in this case.
    In general, the factor of a higher level choosing the behavior of a
    lowel level, might just be a meeting point of relatively independent and
    fixed components (or 'atoms') of static qualities (forming holons or
    not) where the result is not clear- that is, a point of uncertainty. (I
    think this is close to your own view?).
    So what chooses, is not the intellect or any lower level, but the glue
    that somewhat ambiguously binds them together, that is, Dynamical
    Quality. Pirsig is not incoherent, he merely describes the intellectual
    level as any other level, that's beyond a 'choosing unit' or 'self' and
    has a spatiotemporal behavior of it's own. If one wants to catch the
    self (the choosing unit) in the intellect, one bases ones view from the
    point of a subject wherin the lower levels are the objects.

    So far my contribution this week.

    Kind regards,


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