Re: MF Discussion Topic for December 2003

From: David MOREY (
Date: Sat Dec 20 2003 - 13:51:48 GMT

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    Can you clarify two things for me.

    1) Often people talk about intellect in terms
    of logic/maths on this site. Do you consider
    Freud/Weber intellectuals? Clearly they are
    concerned with redescribing society and human
    understanding. Often by using new language and
    metaphors. Poets also do similar things, so are
    poets intellectuals?

    2) Quality is linked by Pirsig to experience.
    Therefore when choices are being made with
    respect to quality this does imply judgement, but
    is not judgement always implied when choice and
    quality are brought together? When you say that
    atoms are influenced by quality when combining do
    you imply that atoms have a form of experience to
    be able to move towards what has the greater quality?
    Perhaps there is a form of natural selection at this level
    but as there are no fossils of failed versions of water for example
    we have not been able to work it out. I think the incredible
    importance of the successful version of water for the forms
    of life we have is somehow suspicious. Of course, life influences
    the presence of water on the planet as well by recycling it.
    Are you making any distinction between what is quality for
    human beings and what is quality when there is not what we nornally
    think of as an experience of quality?

    3) I find it hard to see what we mean by the social level in
    isolation as if this could exist without the activity of human intelligence.
    All traditions and customs and productive practices have been
    created and enabled to endure with implied intention/use/purpose.
    If purpose/use/intention have been recognised then intelligence is at work.
    What we seem to mean on this site by intellgence is something more
    individualistic, abstract, and aimed in the direction of rapid social change
    and development of increasing DQ possibiliities. Individualistic intelligence
    seems to begin when DQ opens up, when it becomes realised that how we
    live now and what we think now is open to change and improvement and
    challenge. But before written history and rapid change there was a very slow
    development of intelligence that contains stuff like wouldn't this wheel
    thing make out lives better, only the grasp of the implications of change
    brought by the wheel may have been very limited. And I guess it was not
    abstractly drawn out on a planning board, but is it so very different to a
    moon shot?

    I do not want to go off topic but thought it might help to understand
    your position if you can clarify the above.

    David Morey

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