Re: MF Discussion Topic for February 2004

From: Wim Nusselder (
Date: Thu Feb 05 2004 - 07:19:02 GMT

  • Next message: "Re: MF Discussion Topic for February 2004"

    Dear all,

    Thanks for choosing my topic. Hope that a little explanation will be able to
    also involve in the discussion the majority that didn't...

    I formulated it as:
    'Is it THE MoQ we are discussing (i.e. as meant by Pirsig) or are we (should
    we be) discussing the merits of our various versions (with Pirsig's writings
    expressing only one version or even a version that develops in time)?'

    This is NOT meant as merely a suggestion for a rule that should guide our
    behaviour on this list (and MD). That's how Amilcar probably understood it
    when he wrote 29 Jan 2004 22:22:02 -0500:
    'Honestly, i'm really not being facetious. But Wim, is this your offering
    for a topic? If not, i think you should ask it as your suggestion (whether
    we'll acutally 'obey' the findings/opinions is another topic i guess -hehe).
    If so
    it has my vote.'

    Please understand it primarily as a discussion about the nature of the MoQ.
    The starting point, on which we all agree (I guess except Bodvar) could be
    that the MoQ is an intellectual pattern of value.
    They way we understand the MoQ should fit our definition of an intellectual
    pattern of value.
    It does seem to fit Pirsig's definition (from 'Lila's Child'):
    Pirsig there defines 'the intellectual level' as 'the collection and
    manipulation of symbols, created in the brain, that stand for patterns of
    A definition of an intellectual pattern of value derived from Pirsig's
    definition of 'the intellectual level' could be:
    'a pattern of symbols created in the brain that stand for patterns of
    It also fits my favourite definition of intellectual patterns of value (that
    doesn't -in my opinion- contradict Pirsig's one) as patterns of value that
    are maintained by copying of 'reasons for' (behaviour, natural phenomena,
    whatever) other patterns of experience.

    So, please don't merely give an opinion on whether the MoQ we are discussing
    is merely the result of Pirsig's activities or of our collective activities.
    Please support it with ideas about what pattern of symbols you experience in
    that MoQ, about what it stands for and about how it is maintained (or with
    other ideas derived from YOUR favourite definition of an intellectual
    pattern of value).
    Bodvar (and any others who think that the MoQ belongs to a fifth level)
    could alternatively argue from a description of how he knows (for lack of
    definability of a fifth level pattern of value) that the MoQ is a fifth
    level pattern of value and then tell us how that knowledge leads him to his

    With friendly greetings,


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