Re: MF April 2004 - Metaphysics and the mystical reality.

Date: Tue Apr 27 2004 - 20:23:00 BST

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    I'm not sure how describing anything as unknowable and beyond all
    definition is a good place to START a discussion about it.

    Mark 27-4-04: Hello Rick, I look forward to receiving your definition of
    If your definition of Quality is not forthcoming, then perhaps this may be a good place to begin an enquiry: Why is Quality difficult to define even though everyone agrees it is real?
    This enquiry leads to the suggestion that Quality is used in two ways:
    1. To indicate All of reality. (Mystical reality.)
    2. Traditionally as Excellence.
    Therefore, we may wish to enquire into the relationship between Excellence and Mystic reality.
    In the East, creativity, Art, excellence, is regarded as a reflection of Mystic reality. In the West, Excellence is attributed to individuals.
    The MoQ explains why these views are so - Quality is the goal of art. Quality is the goal of evolution.

    On the contrary,
    that something is unknowable and beyond all definition seems like a great
    place to END a conversation about it.

    Mark 27-4-04: No one has conversations about everything all at once.
    Conversations are limited by their differentiating nature. Therefore, conversations
    about the One or Quality may only indicate reflections of the One or Quality: excellence. If you make Excellent conversation, then you will say something true and worthwhile.

    I mean, once we've agreed that the
    mystical reality can't be known or defined, what could we possibly say about
    it that we wouldn't already know to be wrong?

    Mark 27-4-04: Truth is a measure of intellectual Quality. Intellectual excellence is a reflection of Mystical reality like any art, and therefore is certainly worth engaging.
    You assume Rick that you must define in order to say something true?
    If truth should be verifiable, then you may agree that excellence is verifiable?

    If we accept this as a
    starting point, in the end, all we're going to be able to talk about is
    metaphysics, since mysticism can't be known or defined.

    Mark 27-4-04: You are forgetting Quality is experienced. It is
    empirical experience of Quality which is the essence of Pirsig's Metaphysics. The epistemological dimension of the MoQ is static; verifiable stable patterns of value.

    And as soon as we
    try to know or define mysticism, we'll just be doing metaphysics again (and
    bad metaphysics no doubt). So why bother?

    Mark 27-4-04: Metaphysics is art too. As such, good metaphysics is a reflection of Mystical reality like any other art. The inclusion of DQ is a master stroke - the signature of an excellent artist.
    Do you find this invalid Rick?


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