RE: MF Discussion Topic for May 2004

From: David Buchanan (
Date: Sat May 22 2004 - 05:04:54 BST

  • Next message: Sam Norton: "Re: MF Discussion Topic for May 2004"

    Mark, Sam and all Focusers:

    Mark wrote:
    ...your analogies, 'first baby step of the other' and 'symphony becomes a
    note' generates problems here dmb, because you identify a beginning point
    which is part of the old level. That reintroduces reductionism, which is not
    on. You want your cake and you want to eat it also. I feel this may be
    because you wish to include structure as part of the oldest idea known to
    man? But this has been dismissed above as a confusion between general value
    differentiation's and particular rational differentiation's.

    dmb replies:
    I think you're trying way too hard to disagree. The analogies are Pirsig's.
    They come from a quote that was included in the post you ostensibly
    responded to. The "first baby step" is just a simpler way of saying "the
    lowest element of the lowest programming language" and the musical analogy
    is put in Pirsig's terms EXACTLY...

    "These Machine Language instructions were the final achievement toward which
    all the circuits aimed. They were the end performance of a whole SYMPHONY of
    switching operations. When he got into programming he found that this
    SYMPHONY of electronic circuits was considered to be a mere SINGLE NOTE in a
    whole other SYMPHONY that had no resemblance to the first one. ..The Machine
    Language Instruction Repertoire, which had been the entire design goal, was
    now the lowest element of the lowest level programming language."

    dmb continues:
    As for the rest of your "criticisms", I honestly don't know what you're
    talking about. It seems you've used my post as a platform to express your
    ideas about "coherence" in the MOQ. We could have a conversation about the
    elected topic, but I have to insist that you respond directly AND without
    weighing it all down with your personal theories and repetitious jargon.

    And I must say, your constant use the word "coherence" is extremely ironic.


    P.S. Sam, my criticism was NOT that you took Pirsig's analogy literally. Not
    even close. Mine was centered on refuting the idea that there is anything
    between the levels. There is no gasket, washer, lubricant, etc. Have you any
    response to that criticism? Did I NOT make a good case that the analogy is
    aimed at illustrating the discrete nature of the levels?

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