Platt Holden (pholden@worldnet.att.net)
Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:09:11 +0100
Hi Magnus,
I wrote:
> >Your example of being the only one left in the world shows that
> >intell-patterns can indeed by supported by bio-patterns since society
has
> >become extinct.
Magnus replied:
> Hmm... so we have three views of the human intellect, I thought it was
> only two until now.
>
> Bo thinks that intellect is built upon the society we live in.
> You, Platt, thinks that intellect is built directly upon our organic
> pattern bodies.
> And I think our intellect is built upon our social pattern bodies.
No, I do not think that intellect is built directly upon our organic
bodies. "Support" and "build" are different words with different meanings.
When I say "supported by" I do not mean "built upon." The meanings are not
interchangeable. Bo is right: intellect is built upon the society we live
in.
> >For me the message from Pirsig that one
> >can rationally make value judgments based on a rational MOQ is perhaps
the
> >most important message of all.
>
> But if we can't decide which phenomena goes where, and we obviously
> can't agree on that, then I think it would be immoral to judge
> according to ones personal static level ladder.
>
To say "it would be immoral to judge according to one's personal static
level ladder" is itself a judgment based on your personal ladder.
According to your view, your judgment that "it would be immoral" is
immoral.
> >Are you saying there are no Quality Events in the absence of these
senses?
>
> No, I'm saying that these senses are not reproducing anything that has
> ever existed before. It isn't reproduction as in copying.
The senses are static bio-patterns. Data changes but the senses remain the
same, copying themselves over and over again. We live in a world of
processes, not paralysis.
> And I think you take the examples in Lila too literally as definitions.
> Cultures are examples of social patterns in the same way that
> biology is an example of organic patterns.
Yes, I take the examples in "Lila" literally. I take everything Pirsig
writes literally. I don't think he's kidding us. I don't think he says one
thing and means another. When he says "biological" he means "biological,"
not "organic." Only rarely does he use organic as a synonym for biological,
but he uses "culture" as a synonym for "society" many times.
> >Agreed. We both generalize which makes our conversation so open and
> >interesting (to me anyway). But I wouldn't call DQ a non-significant
> >variable, nor do I think it's possible to get rid of DQ in our
discussions
> >because it is firmly embedded in static patterns, especially social and
> >intellectual patterns.
>
> No, of course DQ is most significant. But I don't think DQ is in any
> way embedded in any static level. The first split of Quality is into
> Dynamic and Static Quality. DQ still has the ability to affect all
> naturally evolved static patterns, but not artificially constructed
> static patterns. Naturally evolved static patterns could never have
> evolved if DQ weren't able to affect it in that direction. Evolution
> is walking a narrow path near the equilibrium of opposing static
> patterns so that DQ can be the judge.
>
> What I think many on LS says is that all artificially constructed
> static patterns are inorganic. I don't. They're just far from the
> evolutionary path.
All levels are constantly evolving. We are not the end of biological
evolution nor is society or intellect permanently fixed. Even individuals
are evolving. Pirsig makes that clear when he talks about Lila's problems.
And where you have evolution, you have DQ.
By "artificially constructed" I assume you mean man-made as opposed to
nature-made. I agree that DQ does not affect completed artifacts as such.
In a broad, abstract sense, artifacts contain all levels. But they are
primarily inorganic. The argument, however, is tangential to the MOQ which
is "an inquiry into morals," not the composition of man-made objects.
Magnus, I think our disagreements, such as they are, revolve around the
precise meaning of English words. As a former copywriter, I'm a stickler in
this regard. In a way I admire your more casual approach because it opens
doors to thought that might otherwise be closed, even though it makes
mutual understanding difficult at times. But that's all part of the fun of
being on the Lila Squad.
Platt
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