Anders Nielsen (joshu@diku.dk)
Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:21:22 +0100
> I would think that the aliens might be able to come to understand the MoQ
and
> use it if it is valuable, just as when one human society meets another
human
> society it can adopt those patterns it finds that are valuable to it,
often
> leapfrogging to new levels of capability without having to go through all
the
> steps (and structures) that the original society had to create.
>
> The aliens might not be able to even see (observe, comprehend) the human
> intellectual patterns (including MoQ) at all, not having their own
similar
> intellectual patterns to observe them with. The aliens might not be
able to
> observe the social patterns, not having their own human social patterns
to
> compare them to. The aliens might not be able to observe the biological
> patterns for the same reason. It seems, though, that any aliens who
> originated within our galaxy (or our physical system, any thing that we
would
> define as a "place") might be able to recognize the patterns of the
inorganic
> level, and be able to observe, from them, that here on Earth, something
exists
> that is different from their own habitat, (or maybe not, if the changes
in the
> inorganic level are in a different spectrum than they are used to
observing).
>
> Whether the intellectual patterns of the MoQ are useful to the aliens,
the
> levels and structures that MoQ describes would still exist. And the
aliens
> could make use of them to the extent that they are perceivable and
valuable.
>
> I think, however, that it is more likely that we will be able to apply
MoQ to
> the study of of the existence of the aliens than than the other way
around.
What I meant wasn't really if they could use the 4 levels of static quality
patterns, because they're very obviously human-centric. But is the central
point of MoQ:
That Quality is all there is, and the central division between static and
dynamic quality.
(the central point as I see it...I don't put much value to the 4 levels,
because they're too fuzzy and human-specific)
If aliens wouldn't be able to describe themselves that way, I don't think
it's proper to call the MoQ a metaphysics...Then it would be more of a
"conditions humans are under when describing the world" or even "a nice
mental bucket, which humans can fit pretty much all experiences into", and
then I think I'll give up TLS alltogether and go research if Kant did
foresee the epistemological problems raised by QM or not (or something
similar). Because to be a metaphysics means to be the foundation of all
other thinking, and if MoQ doesn't live up to this (or at least have a very
good reason why not) I don't think it would be worth pursuing.
Fortunately (for me..Kant is so much harder to read than Pirsig) I do
believe aliens would be able to describe their own experiences in static
quality/dynamic quality terms, or at least if not they would be quite
different in their workings than we are (and in that event I guess pretty
much any theory had to be rethought)..
And I don't think we'd be able to communicate very much with them, if that
was the case.
[...]
> I think we already have machines that can perceive quality. We
certainly have
> social and intellectual patterns that perceive quality and make decisions
> (allow static Quality or even Dynamic Quality to operate at a particular
> balance point) thereupon. The human individual is not the choicemaker
here.
> The human individual is often a cog in the wheel, a cell in the organism.
As far as I see it, the only thing able to percieve dynamic quality is
humans or rather: sentient beings, but not societies, and certainly not
atomic matter! (saying that dynamic quality for the inorganic static
patterns is the quantum flux, is pure nonsense to me...Im sorry to sound so
harsh, but really I don't understand what people mean when they say this).
and to back this point I will quote Lila, p.192 chap. 13 (Corgi Books
paperback edition):
[here pirsig is talking about the (im)moralness of the death-penalty]
"And beyond that is an even more compelling reason:
societies and thoughts and principles themselves are
no more than sets of static patterns. These patterns
can't by themselves perceive or adjust to Dynamic
Quality. Only a living being can do that."
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