clark (clark@netsites.net)
Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:59:42 +0100
----------
> From: Bodvar Skutvik <skutvik@online.no>
> To: Multiple recipients of <skwok@spark.net.hk>
> Subject: LS Re: The self (was Catechism or FAQ)
> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 1:31 AM
>
>
> 24 Nov. Diana wrote:
>
> > Bodvar Skutvik wrote:
> >
> > > 15. If the world is composed of values then who is doing the
valueing?
> > >
> > > No one in the Subject/Object sense, but to a human being who
> > > straddles all quality levels, only one is highlighted at a time.
> > > Bodily sensations, needs or urges (instincts) bring focus to the
> > > Biological level. Impulses from the social "body" we identify w h,
> > > bring focus to that value plane. In our culture the focus dwells
> > > mostly on the Intellect; reality is tinted by the attic window
> > > glass, but attention shifts easily.
> >
> > ...which begs the question: Who's doing the focusing?
>
> Diana and Squad.
> If I just say "Quality" it sounds a little glib, so let me tell about
> a scientific finding which is very disturbing for the SOM and
> promising for the MOQ. Yes, THE proof I'd say. Back in the early
> sixties the American neurologist Benjamin Libet performed a series of
> experiments, among them one to find exactly when we make up our minds
> when we act. He chose such a simple feat as bending a finger, but the
> setup was very complicated and foolproof. The gist of it all is that
> there is always an electrical "evoked potential" in the brain
> approximately half a second before a person does a voluntary act, but
> the strange thing is that however spontaneous the "guinea pigs" tried
> to be, the potential peaked BEFORE they consciously decided to
> bend the finger! Some "authority" initiates the act before a
> person makes up his/her mind!
>
> Libet and all other who commented on this (it was a great stir about
> the 'free will' implications) spoke about 'the subconscious', 'the
> subliminal' and 'deeper levels' .. etc. But it is plain that if an
> entity decides before the subject itself, then it is not subjective,
> and as it takes place within the person, it is not objective either
> (it will be argued that even if we aren't aware, we perform billions
> of acts. Yes, exactly). As I see it, this is the Quality at
> work: pre-intellectual, pre-everything! The subconscious of
> psychology has been has been classified as "subjective" up to now,
> but Libet's experiment called the bluff of this platypus.
>
> At what Value level does the impulse originate? I would say
> Biology, and that it takes a little time before it "surfaces"
> Intellectually. Libet also found that the act could be aborted which
> I interpret that the Social level has a vote here (if the act had
> been indecent it would not have been carried out). But neither
> Intellect nor Society need interfere, the body performs its best when
> Intellect (thinking) is absent.
>
> Who is doing the focussing? The same who initiates the act and
> who chooses what level is to deal with the task or challenge at hand?
> Quality all the way!
>
> Bo
>
> PS. There was another experiment in the series that was even more
> disturbing, but it is enough for now.
>
>
>
> --
> post message - mailto:skwok@spark.net.hk
> unsubscribe/queries - mailto:diana@asiantravel.com
> homepage - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4670
>
>
Bodvar,
You son-of-a-Gun, I thought I just about had Quality figured out. Now you
have put me back to square one. Taken at face value the results of this
experiment indicate that there is an overarching cosmic mind (God, or what
have you) that is directing our actions and we have no semblance of free
will. My gut reaction is to reject this out of hand yet if we accept the
results of this experiment I don't know where else to go.
After thinking the question over thoroughly, about two minutes, the
thought occurred to me to wonder whether Libet was asking the right
question. In this case the answer to the question the experiment was asking
was always the same so that the neural pathway used was also always the
same and conceivably could have been set by my previous concept of Quality.
It seems to me that a better way to ask the question would be to wire up
all of the fingers on both hands, and maybe even the toes on both feet.
then trigger a random response with an external signal. A light setup or
some such. Then see if the response for the ten different functions could
be differentiated in the electrical signals in the brain. As an old CW
radio operator, I know that if there were a half second delay between
characters that I would be an extremely slow radio operator.
With this setup we could then maybe manually bend the various digits and
see if the neural pathways corresponded, and most importantly see what the
time delays were. Then we could go back to the random decisions by the
experimental subject and see what information we could extract from the
more complete set of data. With a little more thought maybe we could set up
a thought experiment and get different results and see if we got anything
that supported the idea of each person's Quality being different depending
on their level of connection with their personal universe including the
information stored in the brain.
This is a fascinating problem. I am thoroughly POed at you for not
including the full story of the experiment in this communication. It may be
that the remainder of the experiment will throw my ideas into a cocked hat.
Please, Please, send us the rest of the story. Ken.
-- post message - mailto:skwok@spark.net.hk unsubscribe/queries - mailto:diana@asiantravel.com homepage - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4670
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