Bodvar Skutvik (skutvik@online.no)
Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:46:48 +0100
16 Dec. Ravi wrote:
> "We are all parts of the Brahman and are also the Brahman"
Ravi, being the only Hindu of our gang. Do you find that Pirsig's
ideas creates a bridge between Eastern and Western thinking? Usually
the former is associated with Buddhism, but he speaks just as much
about Hinduism.
To the rest of TLS!
May I say a few(!) words about The Lila Squad as there soon will be a
break. The below was started yesteday.
The strain of keeping up with the TLS makes me - sometimes -
loose sight of the simplicity of the quality view, but a walk
usually brings it back and now I have just returned from a long one,
wet and hot so brace yourselves for a lecture!
Before my walk I was a bit "down" over the tendency of our threads to
get bogged down in dogmatic points and branching off into dead
ends, I had objected to Doug's claim that objects have value in the
SOM (the very motive for Pirsig's metaphysical revolution was that
the world is valueless in the mind/matter universe).
Dave's effort to save the MOQ had brought him to despair over
further complications....etc.
I pick up from there.:
Dave says that we can talk about what social value men assign to a
tree (beside Inorganic and Organic value) It makes me wonder how
he regards the levels. To take the Social one for instance: The value
of the whole over the parts is just as much what makes ants build a
colony as man build a nation. The proverbial tree is seen as useful
or a hindrance to whatever common cause is at hand; Each level
regards everything in the universe as good or bad in relationship to
itself. In that sense not only objects - like a tree - but every
conceivable phenomenon is regarded as low or high value from all
levels. Complicated? It simplifies enormously, because for the first
time we have a credible explanation why everything can be regarded so
grandiosely different. Yes, the enigma of evil is solved (not
resolved though, but an explanation is half-way to the goal).
I believe that the mind/matter division isn't left when one starts to
ask about man's (subjective) view of this and that, and even applies
it to science where mind (as consciousness) is supposed to collapse
probability waves and such. Humans have not one MIND. If
one is in Social mode one feels and speaks society's cause,
when in Biology mode one senses bodily needs or pain or
pleasures. In Intellectual mode do we regard "trees" (and everything
else) as ideas, but through the SOM we have been hypnotized to regard
Intellect as synonymous with Mind.
I have warned about it before. If the mind/matter dualism isn't
eradicated (as prior to MOQ's dynamic/static dualism), it will pop up
constantly and mess things. Dave's question about what happens if
humankind perishes shows how the idea of consciousness as creator of
the world lingers. Ok, I know that my own quotation from ZMM (In our
highly complex...etc) seemingly contradicts this, and that is why ZMM
must be treated very cautiously for MOQ purposes.
Don't you see? What broke Phaedrus of ZMM was the fact that he
pursued SOM to its logical conclusion and ended in the subjective
dead end (= consciousness-as-reality nihilism. The objective dead end
is materialism, but that was hardly contemplated by him). Phaedrus of
that stage did not know any other way of looking upon things than by
SOM. Only AFTER stepping out of our myth did he see that there IS a
Subject/Object idea and that it creates the impossibilities. Still,
it took him seventeen years to build the new tool!
Quality is an abstraction, but not of (the mind of) SOM. It is a
set of stable patterns of (the Intellectual level of) MOQ - and
that makes all the difference!. Since Dave spoke of death let me
follow up. "Death" as an idea effects only Intellect, it has
no meaning on the lower levels. Of course, social creatures grieve
over lost members and living organisms resist whatever threatens
life, but death as a concept is unknown. The inconsolable human
being is so because s-he contemplates death AS AN IDEA , once s-he
lets the social mode take over, "warm" community replaces the
"cold" idea and dissipates the sorrow and brings relief (another
riddle explained by MOQ).
Dave's question was more general: What happens if all of humankind
perishes. IMHO: The Intellectual level - as carried by humans - is
gone, but as soon as a new species of sufficient biological and
social complexity (language) has evolved the quality pressure will
re-create a level above Society, and that must necessarily be
Intellect. It will not necessarily harbour our ideas, but rather the
ideas born out of their social culture. The SOM notion that if there
is no-one to observe - or hear - a tree falling it doesn't
happen, is foreign to the MOQ.
So spaketh Bo yesterday. This morning's e-mail brought a heap of
new letters that leaves the above admonitions outdated
and unnecessary.
Dave's letter to Ken says exactly the same..."Under MOQ if
all men...etc". Great! Forgive the above bashing.
Magnus brings a splendid commentary to the same riddle..."But in MOQ,
both parts of the QE...etc". TRUE!
Doug acknowledges this copiously. I agree with him!
Steve shows deep insight in his letter to Ken...."To me
"things" can be broken down, but not qualities...etc". Good.
Mark delivers offers this ..."It (the MOQ) presents you with a tool
which...etc" YES !!! Exactly.
This is just from today's mail. Earlier in the short life of TLS
there has been major contributions - breakthroughs even. From Diana
when we wrestled over Intellect's definition. From Platt in
delivering a quality poem, and the idea of MOQ as a budding new
level (it's a gem). From Maggie in her many Social contributions
-and for putting up with our endless scientific squabbling. Hugo for
his fresh (I am running out of adjectives!) perspectives. Martin for
his own quality site (I have read the Mike discussion and will mail
you privately). Jason for being the mediator in our initial clashes,
and Ken for bringing a new style of writing to TLS, and to Lars
Marius for demonstrating that even computer wizards can have a
"crash" :-). To the lurkers for - perhaps - reading the mail,
and..... and ......I have of course forgotten a lot of names and
contributions; forgive me for that. What we have achieved so far
makes me grateful and proud.
Thank you all!
Bo
PS. I had news from Pirsig's wife that he has gone to Mexico for the
winter. I have a hunch that he is writing on something, hopefully it
will materialize soon.
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