Magnus Berg (qmgb@bull.se)
Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:08:59 +0100
Hi Donny & Squad
Donald T Palmgren wrote:
> I still object to this "object" = "objective" "subject" =
> "subjective" move. Somebody said that they are like two different shades
> of green, but still essentually the same thing... no, no, no.
That was subject-object vs. mind body, not subject-object vs. subjective-
objective.
> Pirsig:
> (ZMM)
> Out of Quality come forth S and O (Aproximatly meaning Mind-Body)
> and experience is the result of a S and an O encontering one-another. But
> Quality is not *in* exp. for it, after all, gives rise *to* exp.
> (LILA)
> P sheds his Eastern flavor and says:
> What really exists is *only* Quality. It has two states (these
> are my own words): the potential and the realized (the in-itself and the
> for-itself in Hegelian lingo). As his diagram in the Einstein-Magreet
> artical shows (on the LS web page) he identifies inorganic, and organic
> SPoV as "objects" and social and intellectual SPoV as "subjects," saying
> that these insubstantial things are a higher form of value evolution than
> the spacialy-extended, solid "stuff."
> (Frankly I liked ZMM better.)
As Bo has said i couple of times, that diagram is probably somewhat trimmed
to make the step to the MoQ easier. Later Pirsig writes:
Next, notice that the Metaphysics of Quality provides a larger framework
in which to integrate subjectivity and objectivity. Subjectivity and
objectivity are not separate universes that have no connection to each
other. They are instead separate stages of a single evolutionary process
called value. I can find no place where the words subjective and objective
are used where they cannot be replaced by one of these four categories.
When we get rid of the words "subjective" and "objective" completely
often there is a great increase in the clarity of what is said. One person
who I'm sure would agree with me on this would be Nile's Boor.
Any SPoV can be subject or object in any experience (Quality Event).
There must still be a subject in the Quality Event of two colliding
atoms. Both atoms are not objects. Both atoms are subjects from it's
point of view. On the other hand, when you hear a new idea (an
intellectual SPoV), you probably consider yourself to be the subject
and the idea to be the object, right?
Another thing, it's really only inorganic patterns that are spatially
extended. All other patterns are spatially extended only due to their
inorganic representation, the dependency.
Magnus
-- "I'm so full of what is right, I can't see what is good" N. Peart - Rush-- post message - mailto:lilasqd@hkg.com unsubscribe/queries - mailto:diana@asiantravel.com homepage - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4670
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