Hettinger (hettingr@iglou.com)
Tue, 4 Aug 1998 05:52:27 +0100
Hi, Squad,
My head is spinning with Schumacher. I haven't finished the whole book
yet, but I'm thrilled by it all. It might be a conceptual jolt to say
inorganic = mineral
biological = plant
social = animal
intellectual = human
but it works, it fits, and all of his explanations could be Pirsig
speaking
about MoQ levels. Occam's Razor strikes again.
----------------------------------------------------------
Troy said:
may i add that the shift from static to dynamic, in any level of
quality, is "spiritual" quality. it's hard for me to order
"intellectual quality" as a greater good than "inorganic quality", since
a pattern (inorganic quality) purely arises out of chaos. that
spiritual, dynamic shift from static chaotic quality to inorganic
quality is absolutely beautiful. Pirsig (and Maggie?) order the four
levels of quality to point out the "evolution" of dynamic quality. but
note: any static break toward dynamic quality has more value than static
quality at even the intellectual level.
Maggie:
I think I can agree with you without giving up the "fact" that the
higher
level is more moral (important, whatever). Here's how:
DQ doesn't operate on the inorganic level any more. Not on this earth.
Although originally DQ operated directly on the inorganic level, it
doesn't
any more. Inorganic patterns have been set. The inorganic world
follows
those patterns EXCEPT within certain balance points-- certain protected
centers of biological beings. DQ needs that protection, which has grown
to
become the biological level.
I think this pattern continues all the way up,
I like what you said about the "spiritualness" of any static pattern
being
shifted dynamically, even low-level shifts. Let me suggest something
about
that "spiritualness". The "spiritualness" is not something inherent in
the
interaction of lower-level patterns. I'm going to propose that
"spiritualness" happens within the observer. It's actually a person's
perception shifting--DQ and/or intellectual quality reording a person's
internal stable social self.
I know that' s not what you said, so push back if you think I missed the
point.
Troy said:
+ intellectual quality is the cognizance between one and one's self.
we big-brained humans know about intellect. but so does a dog that know
it
doesn't "like" its master to beat it. that would be a good example of a
society-intellectual quality shift. the dog and the master compose a
social
quality. the dog and its "feelings" compose an intellectual quality.
Maggie:
Good example. I would say that higher-order animals do experience raw
intellectual quality. They do not,however, have the particular social
and
biological patterns that allow them to share intellect with each other
in
the revolutionary way that humans do. It occurred to me, also, that
when
we think of the animal world, we most commonly think of animals most
like
ourselves (high on the evolutionary scale), or domesticated animals,
which
have a unique "protected" evolution, protected by the same human
intellect
that protects humans. Maybe we shouldn't consider these animals to be
representative of the "animal world"--the world of the social level.
If we
consider them to be the exception, and not the rule, the dog's intellect
is
no longer a problem to MoQ.
Diana McPartlin wrote:
I would include thoughts as a kind of behavior so thoughts that we copy
(or
perhaps copy themselves) from others are social patterns rather than
intellectual. Thus cultural values and behaviors are copied from one
person
to another without any reasoning at the intellectual level.
Maggie:
Many psychologists and educators consider "thought" to be non-verbal
speech,
and I consider speech to be a red flag that indicates human social
interactions.
I like your breakdown of the differences.
> And Bo (is it pronounced "boo!"? I always thought it rhymed with toe)
> has argued that the intellectual level is the same as the SOM. I think
> he's probably right.
> The subject has to separate itself from the object
> in order to contemplate it. Social patterns are copied blind from one to
> another, there's no objectivity in them.
Perhaps the model for intellectual is Pirsig's card file. You have two
cards. You hold them up and say, "Which one goes first?"
Within social, there are cards also, but they come with their rank
already
labeled on them, so even though a comparison is made the outcome is
determined by the rank of the card, not by the decision of the holder.
Perhaps. I'm thinking about this.
Bo:
I couldn't figure out what you meant by your name sounding startling.
Diana
mentioned "Boo", which is what kids say when they play at frightening
someone.
Actually, I heard it like she did (rhymes with 'toe'), and when I
wondered
what you were talking about, I made some connections to the American
South,
where "Bo" is a name with pretty high social quality. It's short for
"Beauregard", which sounds pretentious, and is, but it's also
degenerated
into a kind of slang word, with sexy connotations, as a girl's steady
boyfriend would be her "beau". If it implies anything, it implies a
good-looking hunk of a man. Nothing you have to worry about there.
In the South, "Bo" is such a common nickname, it's almost a word for
"guy"
or "fellow" or "buddy". "Bodvar", on the other hand, is not an American
name at all, and until I met you, it had no connotations of any sort.
Now
it's meaningful, but I kindof like Bo, myself. ;-)
Maggie
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