Horse (horse@wasted.demon.nl)
Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:29:56 +0100
Hi Glove and Squad
GLOVE:
> Horse, you will have to forgive my bluntness in asserting SO thinking. i
> didnt mean it the way it came out. i was merely trying to point out the
> difference between a 'ladder' type of learning/evolution we are familar with
> in SO thinking and an all-space-filling expansion of Quality ripples that is
> symbolic to MOQ think, at least from my PoV anyway.
No offense taken - be as blunt as you want, it's quite hard to offend
me :)
I don't see the emergence that MoQ supports as a ladder form of
evolution. L5 is the combination and interplay of all of the lower
levels - at the moment in an early, nascent state.
GLOVE:
> for example, lets say i dreamed your 5th level is formally added to the MOQ
> by vote of TLS. what happens to the ties that bind SOM to the MOQ? the
> subjective nature of the social and intellect layers, coupled with the
> inorganic and biological layers as objects? how do we classify the 5th
> level? outside of SOM completely? but doesnt that create a platypus? just
> what we are hoping to avoid with the MOQ. we would fall right back into SO
> thinking with that path.
It may create a SOM platypus but from an MoQ point of view I don't
see a problem. L5 is inevitable and will occur at some time - why
not now. I'm not absolutely certain that virus's, the 'Net and ALife in
general constitute the start of L5 but they do not fit well into the
current 4 level structure. In a previous post Magnus wrote:
"In my essay I argue that such viruses are alive as you say, but
their universe is built using other inorganic building blocks. They
have not quarks and neutrinos but ones and zeros, they have not
our laws of nature but the instruction set of the CPU."
Ones and zero's are not organic building blocks they are
intellectual patterns of value. The existence of the floppy disk, the
electronic/computer environment and cyberspace itself are due to
intellectual patterns. They are created by intellect. The instruction
sets of all CPU's are, for an L5 PoV, laws of nature. As static as
gravity and the speed of light. A new form of PoV's adapt to a new
value layer with all the dynamism that lower levels exhibit - more in
some senses as they need to latch.
>From an IntPoV perspective L5 may well be outside of SOM - but
is this a bad thing. Tell me why? It is more likely that SOM thinking
would restrict or deny the existence of L5. Quality thinking is
cheering L5 on - a dynamic break wiht the old restrictions of L4 and
below.
GLOVE:
> that is one concern i have in extending the MOQ in any fashion. another
> concern is the underlying way the MOQ should work if it is a proper
> metaphysics capable of 'taking over' for SO thinking. the MOQ must account
> for everything, and by saying we can arbitrarily add a layer here and a
> layer there is completely discounting the entire underlying complete beauty
> of the MOQ. its SO thinking! can there be any doubt about that?
The MoQ is a framework. As with any framework if it fails to
expand with the value that creates it then it breaks. Fortunately I
don't think this is the case. The beauty of the MoQ is that it is
dynamic and will grow to accommodate a new level - if it is the
case that L5 is genuinely new. This is no arbitrary addition but
what I see as an inevitable consequence of IntPoV's and DQ. We're
living in a stunningly dynamic period (Interesting Times???), this
can only add to the probability of the emergence of a new level.
I completely reject the SO accusation (no offense taken - none
intended). What I see is a lack of faith in the MoQ to incorporate a
new level and an imminent attack by IntPoV's in order to support
its own dominance. Intellect will try to contain and inhibit L5 in the
same way that SocPoV's have attempted the same with Intellect.
>From an MoQ perspective this is immoral.
Glove
> like i said, i dont know squat about a computer virus and i am not about to
> get into an arguement about whether or not its alive. especially with
> someone who collects them! :) i have enough trouble deciding if i am really
> alive! seriously. i still think, however, that the computer virus is only
> alive if you consider electricity to be alive, which it may well be. its the
> Dynamic Quality that gives rise to that life and not a new evolving level of
> the MOQ.
I think that much of the problem here is that we are trying to
overlay Level 4 values on Level 5 patterns. The aliveness of a virus,
the Internet or other L5 PoV's, is a limited way of expressing the
quality inherent in PoV's of a new level. The virus/electricity
relationship bears an amount of resemblance to the Organic
Virus/Carbon relationship. Electricity may be part of the basis of L5
but is in no way comparable to the L5 PoV's. L5 PoV's have
emerged from IntPoV's in the same way that BioPoV's emerged
from InorgPoV's.
At the moment it is hard to be absolutely certain that L5 is a truly
new level. Only time will tell. But I think that we should take great
care not to damage its chances by supporting the static
dominance of IntPoV's in the face of new possibilities. This is the
basis of the MoQ - change for the better is moral - but better from
which point of view?
Horse
"Making history, it turned out, was quite easy.
It was what got written down.
It was as simple as that!"
Sir Sam Vimes.
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