Bodvar Skutvik (skutvik@online.no)
Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:32:53 +0100
Tue, 8 Sep 1998 "Horse" wrote
> Hi Bo et. al.
.....snip
> I'm not entirely sure why you see the quality movement as a new
> level. Surely it is more like the consolidation of your SOTAQI idea.
> The Quality movement, spearheded by MoQ is the intellectual
> replacement for SOM.
The MOQ sequence is open-ended and implies that DQ wants to
free itself from Intellect's restraints also, but to call a budding
new level "Quality" is confusing (see Glove's objections)) so
come to my rescue someone!!
Anyway, my SOTAQI (everyone scrambles for the door by hearing
it now) makes SOM (or SO-logic) the Intellect of MOQ while
ostracizing makes it lurk in the wings as a constant nuisance
forever.
> There also seems to be a conflict when you say that Intellect
> cannot recognize a level beyond itself. Is this not the same as
> saying that Social PoV's cannot recognise Intellectual PoV's. If this
> is the case then why did Pirsig say that it is immoral for Society to
> attempt to dominate intellect. If Society cannot recognize Intellect
> then how can it attempt to dominate it.
Society does not recognize Intellect, but it "feels" its effects and
resists it much like a body don't recognize a virus other than as
illness and tries to "dominate" it. I see no conflict with the MOQ
here.
> Intellect may refuse to accept that there is a level higher than itself,
> as I think you intimate, but this will bring it into conflict with the
> higher level. This may even casue a situation similar to Intellect
> and Biology ganging up on Society, except in this case it will be
> Level 5 and Society that gang up on Intellect. Intellect will suffer -
> badly.
Yes, definitely! Look how Phædrus of LILA defends Society against
Intellect. The 5th level will certainly gang up on Society, and
Intellect will suffer; this is why I once said that I fear for what
Pirsig has released, but Intellect has terrorized us for too
long. And relax, a Social rebound will not be of the Medieval,
Inquisition type. Intellect is there as a buffer, but its position
will not be the same.
......snip
> We __DO__ partake of levels below Intellect. All PoV's at the
> Intellectual level partake of levels below Intellect. But I don't believe
> that IntPoV's 'possess' patterns of value at Level 5. Its more the
> reverse - Level 5 PoV's 'possess' Level $ and below PoV's. The
> border (or point of transition) between Levels 4 and 5 is fuzzy, so
> to limited degree I suppose we do partake. I'm not quite sure yet.
> Got any good idea's?
I just have too many ideas, but it will be time to ponder the 4/5th
level relationship in the coming century :-). I am greatly pleased
that you - even if not buying it - see the SOTAQI implications so
clearly. But how long was Adam in paradise? In a letter to Glove
you present you own 5th level candidate:
> Not at all. As I see it the computer virus fulfils all the pre-requisites
> to class it as a true life form. They are ubiquitous. They reproduce
> and propagate, moving from computer to computer. They produce a
> representation of themselves in binary code - similar to DNA. They
> hijack the metabolism of their host to carry out their functions (as
> biological virus's commandeer the molecular metabolism of infected
> cells. They respond to stimuli in their environment. They mutate.
> They evolve.
> The main difference between a computer virus and a biological virus
> is the environment they inhabit. This environment is an emergent
> level of intellectual patterns of value - call it cyberspace or
> whatever. They are the early stages of a new level of PoV's. More
> inhabitants will join them as Level 5 patterns evolve. Intellect is the
> parent base for this new level. I'm sure most creations of
> intellectual PoV's are unhappy about it - but that's life :)
A fifth level will have to be a rise in value and I can't see how the
computer virus can improve on anything. Here's our old difference
again: you look upon A-Intelligence as equal to artificial
Q-Intellect, but that is not valid.
Your computer virus is a variant of Magnus' robot crew riddle.Certain
traits of all levels can - or will sometime - be replicated, and it
may looks like the real thing....... AS LONG AS IT LASTS. Matter
particles can be created in cyclotrones (lifespan: nanoseconds);
Life's basic traits can be imitated by biological virus;
Society-like traits can be copied (Magnus sees biological organisms
as "societies" [PIRSIG DOES TOO!!]) and - IMO - Intellectual
traits can be imitated as computer virus. Ubiquity and
proliferation and propagation are the hallmarks of IntPov (ideas).
The scenarios of internet as "alive", computer virus takeover
or computer 'awakening to consciousness' are good SciFi subjects,
while the real Quality development always looks prosaic, almost
indistinguishable from its parent level, yet with greater impact than
imagined.
Bodvar
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