RE: MD Consciousness/Awareness/the property market in London

From: Marty Jorgensen (
Date: Thu May 03 2001 - 19:48:35 BST

Elephant - Thank you for pointing out the differences between consciousness
and houses. I think I was confused by the whole
'Doors of Perception' thing; I was always trying to unlock my consciousness
with my house key.

Elephant said: "Having a nice house *isn't* proportionately related to how
hard you work, whereas having an enlightened consciousness is."

I say: But consciousness is not a 'thing' - you can't 'have' an enlightened
consciousness because you can't HAVE consciousness at all - it's not an
attribute like brown hair or good eyesight. All you are, in terms of
self-referral, IS consciousness. 'Consciousness has an enlightened
consciousness' makes no sense, or is at least redundant.

Elephant said: "It seems to me that you're still treating *consciousness*
as a product....

Me: I didn't mean to give that impression; Consciousness is certainly not a
product or a process. I was merely trying to point out that I believe those
who think consciousness is created by brains are wrong.

Elephant said:
Persons, Consciousnesses - these are different concepts. Compare 'person'
'soul'. My personality can have a bearing on the fate of my eternal soul,
but this fate needn't be shared with the fate of the personality. It might
be that the personality dies for the soul to live. Likewise with
individuated consciousness: the fact that personal identity ('elephant') is
so fragile doesn't make the distinction between this consciousness and that
one any the less distinct. Consciousness and personality are not the same.

Me: No, consciousness and personality are NOT the same, but the way I look
at consciousness, you seem to be mixing the two up. Your personality, your
'me', is your creation. It is created when you (we) begin to differentiate,
name and objectify. There is no 'you' other than your consciousness, which
we often refer to as 'experience' or 'perception' - there's nothing else

Elephant said:
Transparently, from the moment we enter language to report on the affairs of
'we' and of 'I', *we are not one*. My consciousness, a consciousness of DQ
attached to a particular SQ history, is a different consciousness from

Me again: I don't believe there is a 'my consciousness attached to a
particular SQ history'; what you're referring to is your personality,
you're 'me'. That is not consciousness, it is what you have created from
it, based on experience (consciousness). You certainly are a different
person from me with totally different experiences and a unique image of
yourself. Where is the different consciousness?

Elephant was puzzled (probably by my imprecise use of language):

I don't understand 'I experience consciousness'. (ever tried seeing
yourself seeing?) Surely only 'I experience (...)' or 'I am conscious'
makes sense?

I respond: Yes, of course, one doesn't experience consciousness,
'experience' and 'consciousness' refer to the same thing; they ARE the same
thing. When I was referring to our experience OF consciousness, I was
referring to how we (our personalities) manipulate it.

and finally, Elephant quoted: "Fun is one thing money can't buy."

I reply: But fun isn't a 'thing', it's dynamic quality, and you can get
that for free all over the place.

No matter where you go, you're not there.

marty j

-----Original Message-----
[]On Behalf Of elephant
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness/Awareness/the property market in London

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