Re: MD In Defense Of Socialism?

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Sun May 27 2001 - 21:35:13 BST

Hi Rog:

A truly high-quality post in every respect. Well thought out, clearly
expressed, grammatically correct, and powerfully argued. It will be
interesting to see if the responses come even half way to the quality
level you have set. You have shown how positions should be
presented on this site, with "logical consistency, agreement with
experience, and economy of explanation"-- Pirsig's tests for truth. In
other words, I wish I had said that. Nice going old friend.


> To All socialists and anti free enterprise types
> From Rog
> I have been tempted to reply to Andrea, Stephen, David and others' specific
> posts in defense of socialism and/or attacking free enterprise, but have
> resisted the urge. To be blunt, I find their arguments to be foundationless.
> In general, there views (seem to me to) have really weird misunderstandings
> of both the concepts behind and the inner workings of capitalism. I agree we
> should keep the focus within the confines of the metaphysics, but with that
> settled, I still have a handfull of questions to all the anti-free enterprise
> folks out there (you know who you are). My questions, in no particular order
> are:
> 1) How can you argue for various brands of socialism despite their obvious
> inability to work? Or in the overwhelming evidence that free
> enterprise/representational free democracy works so well in its modern form?
> (In MOQ terms, it is proven to be the most moral or highest quality) What was
> the game score in that 20th century battle? $450 trillion to none? (OK, you
> can add whatever the GNP is of Cuba and N Korea)?
> 2) How can you argue for something that is against human nature (ie that
> people should work for the benefit of "the state" "collective" rather than
> for themself)? You don't think this is some type of requirement for social
> quality do you?
> 3) How can you argue for centralizing power in the hands of the state rather
> than decentralizing as is so resplendent in modern capitalism? Don't you see
> the value of checks and balances of competing interests as opposed to the
> sheer potential for exploitation of power centralization?
> 4) How can you be fans of the MOQ -- which dismissed socialism as less
> dynamic and therefore less moral than free enterprise -- and socialists?
> 5) How can you denigrate selfishness when it obviously means "freedom to
> pursue that which one values" in terms of the MOQ? Certainly you don't think
> capitalism promotes viscious win/lose selfishness more than other economic
> models do? Or do you?
> 6) How can you condemn free enterprise and representative democracy for
> pollution and environmental destruction, when the track record, at least per
> unit of production, is perhaps the best of any type of society? (certainly
> better than the socialist economies)
> 7) How can you fault that which gives the most freedom in light of your
> beliefs in the MOQ? This includes the hallowed freedom to "not get a job" to
> Andrea's objections and even the freedom to "play soccer and think," to
> David's. (Though it certainly doesn't usually reward folks to do either
> unless quite talented)
> 8) Don't you see that the various free enterprise societies (including yours)
> are also the places with the highest intellectual accomplishments? Science,
> philosophy, technology, literature, mathematics, art?
> I am not arguing that any free enterprise system that exists today is perfect
> (though I would argue that the US is way, way above all others). Most of the
> problems that free enterprise/democracy faces weren't creations of free
> enterprise as much as they are unsolved holdovers of pre-modern ways.
> Quality continues to advance, and free enterprise/democracy as practiced in
> various modern societies is the best at establishing social quality and hence
> establishing the foundation for intellectual quality to take root on it. Now
> certainly none of you can argue with that ...Can you?
> (he says with a sly grin)
> Rog

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