MD sco v cap shenannigans

From: Stephen Devlin (
Date: Thu May 31 2001 - 11:15:30 BST

        "On this stream, one may see an ever-changing pattern of vortices,
ripples, waves, splashes, etc., which evidently have no independent
existence as such. Rather, they are abstracted from the flowing movement,
arising and vanishing in the total process of the flow. Such transitory
subsistence as may be possessed by these abstracted forms implies only a
relative independence or autonomy of behaviour, rather than absolutely
independent existence as ultimate substances."
        The above is quoted from "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" by
David Bohm. The present debate (dialogue?) on socialism v capitalism seems
to be an example of these intellectual patterns that have no independent
existence of their own. It is a false dichotomy to suggest an either or
position and setting up each view as strawmen is below the MOQ. From the
posts it is obvious we can all see quality in its various forms in each of
the opposed views but it needs to be said that people can be fickle when it
comes to political views as their needs and desire's change. The most
inspiring message I personally get from Pirsig (including the occassional
interview that I dig up on the web) is of a need for coherence between our
view of the world and how we fundamentally operate, as a guess I suggest
that neither socialism, capitalism or any other present -ism we have will be
the panacea for the present woes of the world and I do think humanity is
capable of applying creativity to these problems, but I must say that in the
present climate where an idea is torn to shreds before it has time to grow
and develope that is unlikely to happen. RMP sometimes reminds me of Marx in
that here we have a guy trying to understand why the world is so and doing
what he can to add quality and improve it, in the MOQ's developement it is
going to need to stand up and show the world what it has to offer, even if
its not the be all and end all.
        PS I'm not with the view that reality is quality, I think reality is
subservient to quality in that it is our insight or temporal view of
Quality, Newtons view of reality is not the same as Einsteins, and thus our
ideas should not perhaps be clung to tenaciously.

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