Re: MD sco v cap shenannigans

From: david wilkinson (
Date: Thu May 31 2001 - 12:03:53 BST

I absolutely agree. The current socialisim capitalism dualism (ism ism ism)
is outdated. We need to come up with a new device, and realise that this
will inturn be superceeded and so on and so on untill we as a race are
extinguished. The first step of any rehabilitation program is admittance,
and this is what I am promoting. Not socialism as may be understandably
inferred from my posts, and certainly not capitalism, but rather an
evolution of the ideals, a fusion between the obvious advantages and
disadvantages of both opposing systems. There is always need for
competition otherwise static patterns occur, however the quality moment will
not come when 2 polar opposites clash. Both sytems are well over 100 years
old in their mod3ern guise (probably about 50 or so in their post modern)
and I believe are past their use by date. This is a problem. The founding
documents of most countries are still adhered to, in americas case quite
literally at times, and yet are all at least 150 years old. 150 years ago
there was no internal combustion engine, no aircraft, no electricity,
certainly no computers - no so many things that we have all been born with
and subsequently lived with and make an unfathomable difference between then
and now. I think that we have evolved a bit since then. A MASSIVE
reassesmant is in order for the global eco-political scene, and the quality
concept as pirsig explains seems to be a good base (the best I have yet
discovered) to start from. HOWEVER it must start from people like us.
Static pattern is comfortable, things that dont change are comfortable, to
change means to make an effort which can be seen as uncomfortable, and what
we have grown up being induced by breeds this comfortableness over genuine
quality (as you know i see consumerism as a source of this comfortableness)
People who realise that there is something really wrong with the current
eco-political climate, and judging by the posts this is something that
people feel quite passionate about, wheter left or right wing, need to have
a voice to express it, most companies arent going to want to change much as
they are doing quite allright thatnkyou very much, and this new approach
would make them very uncomfortable. Current political parties of note would
not touch the issue with a 10 ft pole as it is radical, and excuse me but we
cant have radical governments now can we. This leaves only 3 creadible
1. Using this knowledge compete with the sytem head on, that is on business
terms - very difficult without the right product
2. Competing as a political entity - this would be most effective however
the friction that would be produced may be inbearable for the current
3. Individual awareness and conscious decision - this can only really be
achieved with 'propoganda' on any sort of effective scale.

Any suggestions of how to induce this knowledge on a mass basis would be
absolutely appreciated in the highest possable way.

Viva la evolution!!!!

david wilkinson

>From: Stephen Devlin <>
>To: "''" <>
>Subject: MD sco v cap shenannigans
>Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:15:30 +0100
> "On this stream, one may see an ever-changing pattern of vortices,
>ripples, waves, splashes, etc., which evidently have no independent
>existence as such. Rather, they are abstracted from the flowing movement,
>arising and vanishing in the total process of the flow. Such transitory
>subsistence as may be possessed by these abstracted forms implies only a
>relative independence or autonomy of behaviour, rather than absolutely
>independent existence as ultimate substances."
> The above is quoted from "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" by
>David Bohm. The present debate (dialogue?) on socialism v capitalism seems
>to be an example of these intellectual patterns that have no independent
>existence of their own. It is a false dichotomy to suggest an either or
>position and setting up each view as strawmen is below the MOQ. From the
>posts it is obvious we can all see quality in its various forms in each of
>the opposed views but it needs to be said that people can be fickle when it
>comes to political views as their needs and desire's change. The most
>inspiring message I personally get from Pirsig (including the occassional
>interview that I dig up on the web) is of a need for coherence between our
>view of the world and how we fundamentally operate, as a guess I suggest
>that neither socialism, capitalism or any other present -ism we have will
>the panacea for the present woes of the world and I do think humanity is
>capable of applying creativity to these problems, but I must say that in
>present climate where an idea is torn to shreds before it has time to grow
>and develope that is unlikely to happen. RMP sometimes reminds me of Marx
>that here we have a guy trying to understand why the world is so and doing
>what he can to add quality and improve it, in the MOQ's developement it is
>going to need to stand up and show the world what it has to offer, even if
>its not the be all and end all.
> PS I'm not with the view that reality is quality, I think reality is
>subservient to quality in that it is our insight or temporal view of
>Quality, Newtons view of reality is not the same as Einsteins, and thus our
>ideas should not perhaps be clung to tenaciously.
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