From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Aug 19 2004 - 15:37:39 BST
On 19 Aug 2004 at 7:14, Platt Holden wrote:
It's ironic to say the least that the subject of this thread includes
"Logical Analysis" only to find MSH engaging in a long ad hominem
argument. Instead of attempting to disprove the truth of what Hayes
wrote, MSH attacks who he is associated with.
msh says:
Hayes provides NO source notes or verifiable references of any kind,
so it's impossible to prove or disprove his "accounts" of connections
between Iraq and so-called Islamic "terrorists." This alone is
reason enough to reject his book as a reliable source of information.
Add to this his easily verifiable connections to the Murdoch
propaganda machine, as well as the fact that no independent
corroboration of Hayes' accounts is available, his credibility is
reduced to zero.
platt:
The "point" is illogical on its face as noted above (ad hominem).
msh says:
Under the circumstances described above the ONLY logical step is to
consider the credibility of the source. This is not ad hominem
attack, just common sense.
platt:
As noted in my post, the bipartisan 9/11 commission supports Hayes, a
fact conveniently ignored.
msh says:
Not quite. The Commission found that contact was minimal and in no
way collaborative in threatening the US. When I said there was no
contact, I didn't mean you won't find some Hussein aide swapping spit
with someone who knows the brother of someone in the Taliban. In that
sense, the CIA had more contact with AQ than did Hussein, for
heaven's sake. Here's a summary of the Commission's related
findings. The full Commission report is available online, so anyone
who really wants to can verify this for themselves:
9/11 panel stands by finding on al Qaeda, Iraq
Commission: We have same information as Cheney
Tuesday, July 6, 2004 Posted: 8:31 PM EDT (0031 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Disputing anew an assertion by the Bush
administration, the independent commission investigating the
terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, released a statement Tuesday
indicating that it stands by its conclusion that al Qaeda and Iraq
had only limited connections.
"After examining available transcripts of [Vice President Dick
Cheney's] public remarks, the 9/11 commission believes it has access
to the same information the vice president has seen regarding
contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq prior to the 9/11 attacks," the
commission said in a written statement.
That statement comes in the wake of an interview Cheney gave last
month on CNBC. During that interview, Cheney said "we don't know"
whether Iraq was involved in the attacks. Asked whether he had
information the panel did not, the vice president said, "Probably."
After Cheney's statement on CNBC, the commission asked the vice
president to come forward with any additional information he could
provide about any ties between al Qaeda and Iraq.
One Cheney aide who spoke on condition of anonymity dismissed
Tuesday's commission statement, calling it a "nonstory."
The commission has said it has seen no evidence to suggest that then-
Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's government was involved in the attacks,
which killed nearly 3,000 people.
In a report released last month, the commission concluded that though
there were numerous contacts in the 1990s between Iraq and al Qaeda,
those contacts did not result in a "collaborative relationship."
Last month, Cheney accused news outlets of distorting the
commission's findings to portray them as contradicting statements
that administration officials made in the months before the invasion
of Iraq.
Alleged ties between Iraq and al Qaeda were a main reason the
administration gave for going to war.
Cheney also said recently that the United States has never been able
to "knock down" an uncorroborated Czech report that September 11 plot
leader Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague,
Czech Republic, before the attacks.
The commission said it doesn't believe such a meeting ever took place
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/06/cheney.911/
> msh:
> Please. Not this treadmill again. One more time: This is not a
> conspiracy at all. Major commercial media outlets are also major
> corporations, usually owned by bigger corps making up the
Industrial
> side of the Military-Industrial Complex. Their institutional goal
is
> to maximize profit. War is great for profit in two obvious ways:
> the transfer of tax dollars into private pockets via weapons
> manufacture and maintence; and the expansion of markets and
> resources that always comes with conquest. The profit is
> especially impressive when others are paying the physical and
> financial price.
platt:
Amazing. On the one had it's the Murdoch media empire to blame for
war propaganda. Now it's the media in general that's to blame because
they're in bed with the military-industrial complex. Of course, the
fact that Murdoch owns no munitions factories nor is involved with
heavy industry of any kind is irrelevant. Logical analysis hits a new
high. :-)
msh says:
Direct ownership of weapons companies is hardly the issue. Would you
care to bet that he doesn't have major investments in such companies?
Besides, as I said, that's only one obvious way to profit from a
permanent war footing.
The commercial media are in the business of selling audiences to
advertisers, so a great way to maximize profits is to use your media
assets to keep large segments of the population perpetually fearful
and misinformed, thus establishing a cycle of fear and ignorance that
keeps 'em coming back for more.
platt:
What really bothers MSH and others about Murdoch is that he is a
devout anti-communist and a libertarian which means, in his own
words, "As much individual responsibility as possible, as little
government as possible, as few rules as possible."
msh says:
Yeah. You got it. That's what bothers me, all right.
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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