From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Sun Feb 20 2005 - 22:03:36 GMT
Ron,
Yes, I would recommend it.
For anyone who's read Fritjof Capra's Tao of Physics, it covers much of the
same ground, but I think it's a better read.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Winchester" <phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
> Hi Ian,
>
> I was just trying to decide what I might like to read next. Would you
> recommend Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics"?
>
> -Ron
>
>>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:09:22 -0000
>>
>>Ron, I lose the thread here, but when you say ...
>>
>>"Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality ... I don't see
>>religion and spirituality meaning the same thing."
>>
>>I completely identify with your view. It was Michael Talbot's "Mysticism
>>and the New Physics", contemporary with but better than Capra's "Tao of
>>Physics", that made me think I should read Pirsig in fact, and I've not
>>been disappointed since.
>>
>>Ian.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Winchester"
>><phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>
>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
>>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
>>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
>>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
>>>replacing Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its
>>>spacecraft.
>>>
>>>Hi Scott,
>>>
>>>The thing is, we can't predict the movements of electrons. It is more a
>>>shell game we are playing with the subatomic particles and waves.
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
>>>toward Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
>>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have
>>>read spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so
>>>because of prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty
>>>of spirituality in Western philosophy as well.)
>>>
>>>Ron:
>>>I don't see religion and spirituality meaning the same thing.
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
>>>Experience is that you know prior to the experience what you are going
>>>to experience when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened
>>>Mystical Experience is something that comes to you from what I would
>>>call 'Within.'
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
>>>that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as
>>>misleading as saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a
>>>SOM presupposition: that something gets experienced, for example,
>>>knowledge of "how the world is".
>>>
>>>Ron:
>>>This knowledge simply does not depend on anyone or anything besides
>>>yourself.
>>>
>>>Scott continues;
>>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
>>>as if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of
>>>Unknowing, and the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all
>>>counter-examples. And of course, visions occur in all other traditions
>>>as well.
>>>
>>>Ron:
>>>Bernadette Roberts does not stick to the 'Christian' mystical
>>>experience. If you are speaking in terms of Christianity evolving, I do
>>>believe it will, but hasn't yet to accept this idea of 'No-Self'.
>>>
>>>Would you not agree?
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical
>>>Data.'
>>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
>>>is
>>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
>>>much on what is considered emprical data.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
>>>insult. Could you give an example?
>>>
>>>Ron;
>>>I'll save this Scott, and see what I can do about finding some examples.
>>>
>>>It is mainly in the finance and science journals.
>>>
>>>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
>>>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:58:58 -0700
>>>>
>>>>Ron,
>>>>
>>>>Ron said:
>>>>The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
>>>>philosophical language. :o)
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>I agree. Proof only works in mathematics.
>>>>
>>>>As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
>>>>nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every
>>>>theory
>>>>we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as opposed
>>>>to
>>>>disproven:)
>>>>
>>>>The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that
>>>>both
>>>>Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
>>>>nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we
>>>>think we
>>>>know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
>>>>because it cannot be described.
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
>>>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
>>>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
>>>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
>>>>replacing
>>>>Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its spacecraft.
>>>>
>>>>Ron said:
>>>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
>>>>toward
>>>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
>>>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have
>>>>read
>>>>spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so because
>>>>of
>>>>prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty of
>>>>spirituality
>>>>in Western philosophy as well.)
>>>>
>>>>Ron said:
>>>>On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
>>>>word
>>>>empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a Mystic
>>>>Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the world is,
>>>>that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>I think both characterizations of mysticism given here are misleading,
>>>>and
>>>>subscribe to neither.
>>>>
>>>>Ron said:
>>>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
>>>>Experience
>>>>is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to
>>>>experience
>>>>when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened Mystical
>>>>Experience
>>>>is something that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
>>>>that
>>>>comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as misleading as
>>>>saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a SOM
>>>>presupposition:
>>>>that something gets experienced, for example, knowledge of "how the
>>>>world
>>>>is".
>>>>
>>>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
>>>>as
>>>>if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing,
>>>>and
>>>>the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all counter-examples. And
>>>>of
>>>>course, visions occur in all other traditions as well.
>>>>
>>>>Ron said:
>>>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical
>>>>Data.'
>>>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
>>>>is
>>>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
>>>>much on what is considered emprical data.
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
>>>>insult. Could you give an example?
>>>>
>>>>- Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
>>>>Mail Archives:
>>>>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
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>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
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>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>
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