From: Nathan Pila (pila@sympatico.ca)
Date: Wed Nov 19 2003 - 20:05:32 GMT
Steve,
At this point I see the cosmos as only matter and energy but will keep an
open mind.
To me, statements like 2+2 =4 are a description of the world. Statements
like these are not nouns but rather adjectives.
And I might say that ideas exist in the same way that beauty exists or
wetness or consciousness or fear or love exist, that is to say in the mind
of humans.
But I have not yet gotten around to reading Lila. And I just finished ZMM
and so, perhaps I will take your implied advice and butt out until I am up
to speed with both Pirsig's books under my belt.
On a tangential point, I also just finished reading The Life of Pi. ( I read
both simultaneously ) and found it terrific and think that you also might
find it useful. It was a much easier read for me than ZMM and covers a lot
of the same ground.
Finally I also question the comment on ESP. I know of no evidence for it at
all.
Pleasant regards to you, Nathan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: MD I believe; you believe
> Hi Nathan,
>
> > If I can paraphrase your position it would be that you postulate that
there
> > is more to the universe than matter and energy. I make the assumption
that
> > the universe consists only of matter and energy.
>
> Thanks for attempting to state your understanding of my position--a great
> way to move the conversation along.
>
> Though I would indeed say that "there is more to the universe than matter
> and energy", I would rather say that matter and energy can both be thought
> of as species of value while there is value that is not experienced as
> matter and energy as well. For example, the high quality of 2+2=4 over
> 2+2=42 is not experienced as matter or energy. Another example is
defining
> life, which you've been discussing. Life cannot be distinguished solely
in
> terms of measurements concerning matter and energy. The ideas "matter" and
> "energy" have no matter or energy, and then don't exist by your
assumptions.
> I've provided other examples previously.
>
> > In my mindset, there are no ghosts, or spirits or an anthropomorphic
God, or
> > angels, devils, heaven or hell; there is no morality, no standard of
conduct
> > that is 'correct' and no reward for the righteous and no punishment for
the
> > wicked. "What you see is what you got". Life is for a finite period and
when
> > you die, you disappear as an individual. The flowers and rocks will not
miss
> > you although your friends and family might.
>
> I agree with all of that. I don't believe in gods or "special powers" or
> anything outside of experience.
>
> (I forget who said recently that ESP is a proven scientific fact. I'm
> curious about what was meant by that.)
>
> > You, on the other hand, have a different view and reject much of what I
> > think is true.
>
> As I said, I don't have a different view in the way that you thought.
> Perhaps you could reread my previous posts in that light.
>
> >( I don't mind because I am not 100% sure that I'm right and
> > it could very well be that you are correct.) As far as telling you where
you
> > are wrong, I can't because in part, you may be right. I will agree with
what
> > I think you believe namely that reason and the dogma of the "Church of
> > Reason" is only one way to see the world.
>
> Right. Our discussion is about which way of viewing the world is better:
> viewing experience in terms of matter and energy or viewing experience in
> terms of value. Note that we can only actually have the conversation if
> both of us think that the word "better" has meaning, which of course it
> can't under the assumptions you claim to make.
>
> Do you intend to read Lila, or have you had enough of Pirsig?
(Technically,
> reading both books are prerequisites for this discussion group.)
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
>
>
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