From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jun 27 2004 - 02:02:32 BST
(Lila, 17) "What makes the free-enterprise system superior is that the
socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively, have inadvertently
closed the door to DQ in the buying and selling of things. They closed it
because the metaphysical structure of their objectivity never told them DQ
exists."
msh said:
What Platt doesn't understand is that Pirsig is speaking about a
theoretical "Free Market" that doesn't exist. (I'm giving Pirsig the
benefit of the doubt here.) Communism, then Socialism, were
REACTIONS to predatory capitalistic instincts thriving on the
Industrial Revolution and thereby concentrating wealth and power into
the hands of fewer and fewer individuals.
dmb replies:
I think its pretty clear that Platt reads selectively, pretending an
exaggerated interpretation of his favorite quote trumps and/or negates all
other thoughts on the matter. The quote above might make it appear that
Pirsig is unequivocally pro-capitalist, provided that the quote was the
only thing Pirsig ever wrote on the topic. In fact, in the very same chapter
Pirsig describes NYC's free-enterprise as a Giant that "devours their lives
for its own purposes just as surely as farmers devour the flesh of farm
animals", and points out that capitalism is LESS MORAL than socialism and
that "the conservatives who keep trumpeting about the virtues of free
enterprise are normally just supporting their own self-interest. They are
just doing the usual cover-up for the rich in their age-old exploitation of
the poor".
What Pirsig does in that chapter is examine the classic economic rivals in
MOQ terms. He's looking at the debate in terms of levels of values and in
terms of the static/dynamic distinction. In fact, the virtue most loudly
"trumpeted" by Platt in his case for capitalism is described in that same
chapter as something that "neither the socialist NOR the capitalist ever got
figured out. It's a higher form of evolution. Its and intellectually guided
society, not just a society that is guided by mindless traditions. That's
what gives socialism its drive." So in terms of the levels, socialism is
associated with the fourth, intellectual level and the capitalism with the
third, social level. And as we read elsewhere an intellectually guided
society in absolutely morally superior to one that is not. In terms of the
static/Dynamic split, the metaphysical blindness that led socialism to
inadvertantly close the door on DQ is a problem that infects the Modern West
as a whole. Pirsig is simply pointing out that capitalism was inadvertantly
correct. It leaves the door open, despite the fact that they haven't the
first clue about what actually makes it work.
And so, even though I disagree with Mark and think Pirsig is talking about
the theory AND actual practice of the free market system, I also think he's
come to the right conclusion; the MOQ is recommending some kind of socialism
that DOESN'T inadvertently close the door on DQ. We'd want it to be an
intellectually guided society AND a dynamic society at the same time.
msh said:
Capitalism is NOT interested in free markets, and never has been.
In a true free market economy Capitalism would self-destruct in a
single generation. Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Grumman, GE,
Westinghouse, most banks, wouldn't last for a second without HUGE
taxpayer subsidies in the forms of R&D grants (if not outright
turnover of taxpayer developed technology) , loans, tax breaks and,
when necessary, bail outs. So when Platt and others speak of
Capitalism and Free Market economies as if they are synonymous, they
are victims of propaganda of the first and most obvious order.
dmb says:
Sure, traditional institutions like banks, defense contractors and energy
companies rely on mindless tradition becasue they basically define that
tradition. They know that a rational and intellectual examination of things
is a huge threat to their postion of power and priveledge. They know it
threatens their "age old exploitation of the poor". One of the sadder things
is that nearly all of the largest corporations exercise their power with
advertising dollars, almost literally controlling what the entire society
thinks it wants, needs and desires. Collectively, they have the power to
control what the millions come to value, even if the object of desire
doesn't have much quality or appeals to lower level values. In a
"free-market" consumer society, everyone has to play a game of seduction and
die the death of a salesman. There are millions who waste their lives in
pursuit of these empty, phony promises. It's depressing as hell.
Platt said:
A cultural characteristic that says dedicating yourself to getting an
education is "acting white" and therefore not to be valued is immoral.
dmb says:
There is an anti-intellectual streak down the middle of American culture
that is a mile wide. All Platt has done is spot it in blacks and not in
whites. And there are many reason why SOME black Americans exhibit
anti-intellectual attitudes. Once upon a time black literacy was not a
social goal advocated by progressives and liberals, it was a crime
punishable by death. And then there is the long history of racist books that
proclaim the intellectual inferiority of the people so deprived and abused.
This tactic of blaming the victim is very old. Despise the oppressed for
being destroyed and humiliated at your own hand. Break his back and tell him
to improve his posture. Tis very useful in easing the conscience of the
exploiters to believe the losers somehow deserve it. This is ancient. Even
the classical Greeks rationalized the holding of slaves by convincing
themselves that the uncivilized barbarians were better off being forced to
serve their superiors than being free and at home. That's why Pirsig calls
it "age old" exploitation.
Thanks.
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