Magnus Berg (qmgb@bull.se)
Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:57:06 +0100
Doug and TLS,
Doug Renselle wrote:
> To me there are three glaring examples in 'Lila' of the social level
> being aware of the intellectual level:
>
> 1. Pirsig's extended discussion on the battle between the Zuni priests
> and the brujo. The social immune system was 'aware' of the new
> intellectual pattern threat to their control by the brujo's new ideas.
>
> 2. Pirsig's brief mention of the same thing happening to Joan of Arc.
>
> 3. Pirsig's brief mention of the same thing happening to Galileo. This
> example certainly juxtaposes the Catholic Church condemning Galileo for
> his intellectual threat to their non-intellectual flat-earth-centric
> traditional social patterns. Many within the Church then and now
> condemn intellectual freedom of belief and/or thought.
>
> I see these as examples of a lower level keenly aware of a higher level.
So it would seem, but it takes a human to intellectually realize the
danger to the society and then act on it, either alone or make the
society act. It all comes down to our (my) different views of the
social and intellectual levels. I see both human societies and human
bodies as social SPoV. To translate the brujo example above to a
human body society, it would sound something like this:
A man has a bad liver and it needs to be replaced. The body
society would fight such a violation to its integrity but the
intellectual SPoVs realizes the need and accepts the operation.
I should "confess" though, that one reason I started my
reorginazation of what things belongs to what level, comes
from the assumption that lower levels are not aware of higher
levels but considers this mediation as DQ.
> Let me try an example to see what you mean by absolute. Seems that
> other TLS members have already averred something like this, but I can't
> recall who/when.
>
> If I said that there is social 'behavior' in either of the two lowest
> levels, you would disagree, right?
Right. Of the same reason as above. As soon as I see a society -
i.e. parts organized to make it more valuable than the sum of its
parts, for example a motorcycle - I call it social SPoV and the parts
organic SPoV.
> Is that a good example?
Yes, it shows our different internal definitions of the levels.
I don't think patterns of the second level has to be carbon based,
able to grow, reproduce, what we call life etc. I think Pirsig's
examples in SODV are much better and general.
> Magnus you sure challenge my penultimate level!
Forgive my ignorance, is that good? :}
In that case, likewise!
Magnus
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