Keith and squad,
Whew!!!!! You have warped my brain. I went over your post several
times before I thought I had it. Now I'm not sure I can hold the argument
in my head while I try to answer.
Before we get into the details I believe I see where our major difference
lies. You seem to be saying that the universe would not exist without
sentience. That our existence was required before the universe could have
any material qualities. Alternatively, it could be that you are saying that
the universe existed but could have no reality for us without the
intervention of Dynamic Quality. If the second is the case then we are both
arguing for the existence of Quality from the beginning.
My concern with the MoQ is that it be consistent from beginning to end.
To that end I regard the concept of Quality as being absolutely necessary
for the evolution of the universe right from the start, and to function as
the arbiter of auspiciousness throughout both the sentient and
non-sentient phases.
The auspiciousness of which I speak is the pathway toward randomness of
the initial store of energy which in turn causes Quality, Value, etc to try
every possible pathway on the way. Those pathways which were possible(did
not dead end)
provided further pathways for the journey of entropy. Every functional
physical possibility contributed to the greater complexity and organization
of the physical universe. Because all pathways were, of necessity, good and
valuable, therefore Quality, (the initial energy store) was invariably good
and produced results which had value. We can say that at least up until the
evolution of life, Quality operated in the
same way as during the purely physical phase of universal evolution, and
continues to operate in the same way up until the present.
Now we come to the point where sentient life becomes involved in the
journey of the universe toward randomness (if that is where we are headed).
Now we have another component of Quality (life) which is capable of
altering
(however slight) the purely physical direction of Quality. It is my
contention that the universe has physically existed and was under the
direction of Quality all through the period from the "Big Bang" to the
present. It is also my contention that the universe, as far as we are
individually aware of it, has continuously existed for sentient beings.
Keith says that the universe only exists in the NOW, the present instant.
If dynamic Quality is the result of all of our past experiences plus the
totality of all influences operating on us at any given instant then our
past experience of the universe, plus any immediate new experiences,
operating thru DQ would cause the universe to exist for us continuously
because the universe would be continuously under the ken of our DQ.
It seems obvious to me that the majority, if not all, of the posts on the
squad view the operation of Quality from the human standpoint. In my
opinion this is not in accordance with Pirsig's views. I think Quality must
be applied to the totality of the universe, including us, if it is to have
any validity. If we restrict ourselves to applying Dynamic Qulaity solely
to the human race then we are, at times, going to find ourselves in
opposition to the Qulaity of the universe. If we place ourselves in this
position then we will continue to have the same difficulties that the
philosophers of the past have experienced and we will get no completely
satisfactory answers.
In my mind I view Quality as the Quality of the universe, and Dynamic
Quality as the DQ of humanity. Viewed in this way I see human DQ as slowly
coming
into agreement with universal Quality. Pirsig's example of "many truths"
holds that
there is no sentient final truth but only an intermediate truth depending
on the status of each individuals past experience and immediate influences.
He views this process as slowly bringing humaanity more in agreement and
closer to a final truth. I view universal Quality and human DQ as
functioning in much the same way with agreement with universal Quality
being the goal toward which human DQ is moving.
"In the MOQ, experience is pure Quality which gives rise to the creation
> of intellectual patterns...... Among these patterns is the intellectual
pattern
> that says 'there is an external world of things out there which are
> independent of intellectual patterns'.......... And in this highest
quality
> intellectual pattern, external objects appear historically before
> intellectual patterns... But this highest quality intellectual pattern
> itself comes before the external world, not after, as is commonly
> presumed by the materialist." (Pirsig in letter to Anthony McWatt)
The way I interpret this passage is that he is not differentiating
between memory and immediate experience. Where he uses experience in the
first line he is including our historical memory including our memory of
past experiences of the universe. When Quality presents this mix to create
an intellectual pattern it has happened subliminally and the intellectual
pattern comes prior to the external world.
While we are on the subject, I view DQ (human) as operating continuously
using all of the information at its command including memory and all other
available information (if any). In this view we are continuously riding on
the cutting edge of instantaneous reality. In my mind this puts DQ
generated intellectual patterns before all else.
I have said this ad nauseam but I still maintain that Quality is the
driving force behind the universe and that it has been present since the
beginning. Anything that happens during the wind down of the universe is
good and has value simply because it is a valid part of that process. As
long as we are in harmony with Quality then our actions are good and have
value.
Ken
MOQ Online - http://www.moq.org
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Jan 17 2002 - 13:08:44 GMT