Jonathan -
Curious....should we then choose a word other than Quality?
Shalom
David Lind
Trickster@postmark.net
Jonathan Marder wrote:
> Hi David B. and all,
>
> JONATHAN
> > > I must be extremely dense, because I still don't understand your
> > > argument as to why that teepee experience should be considered mystical
> > > and the bar-room experience not.
> > >
>
> DAVID B.
> > Yes, I'm beginning to wonder if my efforts are in
> > vain. The two contrasting paragraphs that describe the two contrasting
> > scenes are not MY characterizations, those are the colors Pirsig uses to
> > help convey the differences. I hoped that you would recognize from the
> > material we just read. You didn't do your homework, ...
>
> David, I think that you are misunderstanding my point.
> I agree completely that Pirsig uses certain expressions to paint the teepee
> experience as meaningfull and the bar-room experience as "empty". You quote
> several of those expressions.
> However, I still don't see the real substantive difference - if you strip
away
> all those prejorative words that Pirsig inserts, the difference between
teepee
> and bar-room should still be apparent. IMHO it isn't.
>
> DAVID B.
> > The bar scene is about getting drunk and getting laid. The result is
> > social conflict and construction of his metaphysics has to be put on
hold.
> > The teepee scene was about discovering his other half and spinning vast
> > intellectual webs. This is what Pirsig tells us explicitly. And I think
its
> > pretty clear that the results of the bar we're good only on the
biological
> > level, but it was socially negative, intellectually negative, except as
an
> > example, and spirituslly useless.
> > The results of the teepee were socially
> > good, intellectually productive and spiritually satisfying. Ironically,
the
> > teepee experience was more genuinely intimate than the sexual experience.
>
> If we look at it historically, it took Pirsig nearly 30 years to publish
Lila.
> For sure it was put on hold - and may have benefitted.
> The "Lila interruption" is very important, and Pirsig makes it a dominant
part
> of his Novel.
> Let me put it this way, which would have the greater effect on Lila the
novel?:
> 1. Editing out the stuff about Indians and the teepee ceremony.
> 2. Editing out all all reference to Lila and the bar-room.
> NOW do you get my point?
>
> JONATHAN
> > > As for Lila's fake painted fingernails, are they more fake than the
> > > paint on the Indians' faces? ...
>
> DAVID B.
> > Again, these characterizations are Pirsig's, not
> > mine. ...
> [snip] no argument here [snip]
>
> > He's telling us which kind of
> > experience has real quality and which is just a cheap knock-off of
quality.
> That's what he tells us in words, but you also have to read between the
lines by
> looking at the events Pirsig chooses to include in Lila, and the behaviour
of
> Phaedrus in the novel.
> The irony is that it is Lila's FAKENESS that is superficial.
>
> JONATHAN
> > > As a final point, I note that Pirsig's novel presenting the MoQ was not
> > > entitled "John Wooden Leg" nor "Ten Bears" and not named "Dusenbury".
He
> > > called the book "Lila", the name of the woman he picks up in the bar.
> > >
>
> DAVID B.
> > Oh, please. These characters are being discussed
> > simply because they are in the first three chapters. And he calls the
book
> > Lila because of the central question, Does Lila have quality?
>
> David, I think you have just restated my point. The central question of the
book
> revolves around Lila.
>
> > > ROGER asked us to define our view on mysticism ...and here I agree with
>
> Dictionary definitions with JONATHAN's comments [bracketed].
> > > "1a. A spiritual discipline aiming at union with the divine through
deep
> > > meditation or trancelike contemplation ..."
> > > [Not a useful definition unless we can agree what the divine is]
> > > b. The experience of such communion, as described by mystics.
> > > [Now I see - for a definition of mysticism, just ask a mystic!]
> > >
>
> DAVID B.
> > Think of the "divine" as the ultimate mystery
> > behind the world of visible things, not some god or the other. So instead
of
> > "union with the divine" we call it "indentification with DQ". Yes, just
ask
> > a mystic. Pirsig's Radical empiricism ranks this kind of direct
experience
> > as one of the most real kinds of experience.
>
> David, I don't disagree with the definition - just find it circular and
> unsuitable as a foundation for further development. "just ask a mystic"
indeed!
> What sort of definition is that?
>
> [more dictionary]
>
> > > 2. Any belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or
> > > intellectual apprehension but central to being and directly accessible
> > > to intuition.
> > > [Rejected by radical empiricism which regards intuition as a legitimate
> > > part of perception]
>
> DAVID B.
> > Um, if it is directly accessable to intuition, and
> > radical empiricism regards intuition as legitimate, how is it then
rejected?
> > You mixed silly scoundrel.
> Look again David. If intuition is considered a valid part of perception,
then
> you can't have something being both BEYOND perceptual apprehension, but
> ACCESSIBLE to intuition (as the dictionary definition requires).
>
> > > 3. Confused and groundless speculation; superstitious self-delusion.
> > > [Obviously you favourite Dave;-)]
>
> David, I'm baiting you;-)
>
> JONATHAN
> > >One solution is to avoid the word mysticism altogether.
> > >
> > [David Buchanan] Avoid the word?! By your reasoning we should drop
> > the word metaphysics too. Dictionaries are inadequate with that word for
our
> > purposes, so we'l just have to discuss the OQ instead of the MOQ. Please
> > tell me that you're kidding.
>
> That's a technique that has often worked for me before in the Lila
Squad/MF/MD.
> When a word is so loaded and is repeatedly interpreted in many different
ways,
> it is best to find an alternative.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
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