Rick and Struan:
I want to enter your interesting discussion. I'm observing my blue
carpet.....
> 1)"In the Metaphysics of Quality the world is composed of three things:
> mind, matter and Quality."
>
> OK A presupposition, but we know that. I'm not happy with 'Quality' and
> nobody thinks that subjects
> and objects are all there is, but that comes later.
>
> 2) "Because something is not located in the object does not mean that it
has
> to be located in your
> mind."
>
> Agreed. The carpet is really blue but my mind is a 'factor' in that
reality.
> NOTE: A 'factor.' Not,
> 'the only factor', or even, 'the decisive factor.' The 'blueness' is a
> property of the object (UNDER
> AYER'S DEFINITION) but it is also contingent upon the mind therefore:
>
> 3) "But it can be derived from the relationship of mind and matter with
each
> other."
>
> Precisely the point.
>
> 4) "Quality occurs at the point at which subject and object meet"
>
> Absolutely. Note that mind has become subject and matter, object. Can we
use
> these interchangeably?
> Quality occurs at the point at which mind and matter meet. Fine with me.
>
I don't think we can interchange mind/matter and subject/object so easily.
My interpretation is:
a) REALITY - (Seemingly) there's a universe composed by unique individuals,
all immersed in a sort of "ocean of events" AKA time.
b) INDIVIDUALS - The carpet is one of the individuals. Me also, with my mind
(that is a biological function). My carpet (individually) exists even
without a mind experiencing it. It has inorganic properties (blueness, for
example). If you want, you can also call it "matter".
c) QUALITY EVENT - When I (mind) meet the carpet (matter), my mind accepts
a small number of "data" (experience). This sort of automatic filtering
mainly depends by the fact that mind can't contain the whole experience, and
rejects what's considered not important (for example the carpet could also
be radioactive, but I will only experience its blueness). That's why it's a
"Quality" event: "Qualis" is the Latin word for "Which". This consideration
of what's not important is immediate, not conscious, contingent (like in
the hot stove example). This contingence depends by an infinite number of
patterns stratified through the whole story of universe up to create that
event.
d ) SUBJECT AND OBJECT - Through the quality event mind forms an ...idea?,
....icon?, ....imagine? ... of a subject and an object. It's like when you
take a digital snapshot: only a small number of the infinite informations
available are transformed into a "lossy" format (like JPEG). Subject is the
"JPEG Format" of myself (real individual), and object is the "JPEG Format"
of the carpet (real individual). There's no exact matching of the carpet as
object and the carpet as individual.
Please note that up to this moment there's no awareness. The a->d process is
probably valid also for my cat's mind.
> 5) "Quality is not a thing. It is an event"
>
> Of course
>
> 6) "It is the event at which the subject becomes aware of the object"
>
> Again. It is the event at which mind becomes aware of matter. Ok
>
For what I explained in a->d points we can't interchange mind/matter and
subject/object, so every conclusion must be reviewed.
> 7) "And because without objects there can be no subject, quality is the
> event at which awareness of
> both subjects and objects is made possible."
>
> Aha! That is why the subtle shift from mind and matter to subject and
object
> has been made. I agree
> that an object pre-supposes a subject, but what about this? "And because
> without matter there can be
> no mind, quality is the event at which awareness of both mind and matter
is
> made possible." There is
> no logical contradiction in postulating mind without matter. The strong 'a
> priori' argument that
> objects rely upon subjects has vanished completely. Notice that this is
not
> a question of whether
> mind is contingent upon matter in the sense that it could not have come
into
> being without it, it is
> a question of whether the mind can function without perception of matter.
> Notice also that this does
> not need to be empirically validated (although I suspect it can), the fact
> that it is logically
> possible is enough. The argument collapses at this point.
>
In my interpretation, the argument doesn't collapse. Subject exists only if
Object exists. Mind and matter can exist separately.
> 8) "Quality is not just the result of a collision between subject and
> object"
>
> Hmm . . . . tell me more
>
> 9) "The very existence of subject and object themselves is deduced from
the
> Quality event."
>
> 'Deduced.' It is that 'awareness' thing again. Notice that deduction is
not
> empirical. cf. point 7.
> Can I say, "The very existence of mind and matter themselves is deduced
from
> the Quality event?" Is
> deduced by what? The subject? Pirsig has made the huge jump from, Quality
> being 'derived from the
> relationship of mind and matter,' and occurring, 'AT THE POINT AT WHICH
> SUBJECT AND OBJECT MEET,'
> to:
>
> 10) "The Quality event is the cause of the subjects and objects, which are
> then mistakenly presumed
> to be the cause of the Quality!"
>
> So how does he make this jump from quality 'being DERIVED from the
> relationship between mind and
> matter' (my emphasis) to it being the CAUSE of mind and matter? The answer
> is that he does it with
> that short sentence in point 7. He does it by sneakily replacing mind and
> matter (which is what he
> is really talking about) with subjects and objects in order to give his
> reasoning veracity."
>
>
e) - AWARENESS. Finally I can analyze Subject and Object. There's another
biological tool for this activity: I call it Intelligence, as ability to
"read" the data. Only this activity is conscious and produces the awareness
(of Subject and Object), and with a sort of extrapolation, an incomplete
knowledge of reality.
tks
Marco.
p.s.
Maybe (I say maybe!) this last e) point is only a human property, so my cat
could not be aware of my blue carpet where he is sleeping upon.
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:00:42 BST