On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:49:02 -0500, you wrote:
All this I accept.
What I say is that a certain points along this experience we are
necessarily not able to relate to *this* reality in what seems to
others to be a "rational" manner.
In fact I would say that the person experiencing psychosis
(schizophrenia or LSD) is constantly attempting to overly a
rationality over things which appear to have no external origin. To
which we, as a society, believe that these things are not real.
On rare occasions they have found that people experiencing
"schizophrenia" and hearing voices had fillings which were behaving as
radios. Once an external is identified we, again as a a society, are
more than happy to accept it in preference to the abhorrent "mental
illness".
regards,
Ian
>Ian, Geoff, David L, Marco et al
>
>[Ian]
>> Were I to take large amounts of LSD I could achieve a similar state to
>> one of the more debilitating mental illnesses. Would you say that the
>> state of being affected by LSD doesn't exist?
>[3WD]
>As I mentioned in another thread I am reading or now just finished with "The Holographic Universe"
>by Micheal Talbot in which he reviews the potential of the holographic paradigm as a model for
>reality as proposed by Bohm and Pribram.
>
>[Talbot]
>" The main architects of this idea ..University of London physicist David Bohm (1917-1992),... and
>Karl Pribram, (1919- ) a neuophysiologist at Standford... Intriguingly, Bohm and Pribram arrived
>at their conclusions independently and while working from two very different directions. Bohm became
>convinced of the universe's holographic nature only after years of dissatisfaction with standard
>theories' inability to explain all of the phenomena encountered in quantum physics. Pribram became
>convinced because of the failure of standard theories of the brain to explain various
>neurophysiological puzzles." HU p1-2
>
>[3WD]
>Bohm's theory in a nutshell is this: [Brackets are my relating of this to the MoQ]
>
>[Talbot]
>"One of Bohm's most startling assertions is that the tangible reality of our everyday lives is
>really a kind of illusion, like a holographic image. Underlying it is a deeper order of existence,
>[Dynamic Quality] a vast and more primary level of reality that gives birth [through quality events]
>to all the objects and appearances of our physical world [Static Qualities] in much the same way
>that a piece of holographic film gives birth to a hologram. Bohm calls this deeper level of reality
>the 'implicate' (which means enfolded) order, [Dynamic Quality] and he refers to our own level of
>existence as the 'explicate' or unfolded order. [Static Quality] He uses these terms because he sees
>the manifestation of all forms of the universe as the result of countless enfoldings and unfoldings
>[quality events] between these two orders."
>
>"Most mind-boggling of all are Bohm's fully developed ideas about wholeness. Because everything in
>the cosmos is made out of the seamles holographic fabric of the implicate order, he believes it is
>meaningless to the universe as composed of "parts" as it is to view the different geysers in a
>fountain as separate from the water of which they flow." .... " Einstein astounded the world when he
>said that space and time are not separate entities, but are smoothly linked and part of a larger
>space time continuum. Bohm take this idea a giant step further. He says the 'everything' in the
>universe is part of a continuum." [Quality]
>
>[3WD]
>Two people who view this model as useful are psychiartrist Montogue Ullman of the Mainondes Medical
>Center in Brookland and Stanislav Grof, chief of psychiatric research at the Maryland Psychiatric
>Research Center. Ian's reference to LSD flipped my switch because Grof has over 50 years of
>experience in investigating the clinical uses of it.
>
>[Talbot]
>" When Grof began his research, most scientists viewed the LSD experience as little more that a
>stress reaction, the brain's way of responding to a noxious chemical. But when Grof studies the
>records of his patient's experiences he did not find evidence of any recurring stress reaction..
>Instead, there was a difinite continuity running thought each patient's sessions. 'Rather that being
>unrelated and random, the experiential content seemed to represent a successive unfolding of deeper
>and deeper levels of the unconscious," say Grof.... It quickly became clear that serial LSD sessions
>were able to expedite the psychotherapeutic process and shorten the time necessary for the
>treatments of many disorders."
>
>[3WD]
>In a section titled " Pschosis and the Implicate Order" Talbout says this about Ullman's thoughts:
>
>[Talbot]
>"Ullman believes that some aspects of psychosis can also be explained by the holographic idea. Both
>Bohm and Pribram have noted that the experiences mystics have reported throughout the ages - such as
>feelings of cosmic oneness with the universe, a sense of unity with all life, and so forth - sound
>very much like descriptions of the implicate order. They suggest that perhaps mystics are somehow
>able to peer beyond ordinary explicate reality and glimpse its deeper, more holographic qualities.
>Ullman believes that psychotics are also able to experience certain aspects of the holographic level
>of reality. But because they are unable to order [latch] their experiences rationally, these
>glimpses are only tragic parodies of the ones reported by mystics."[my addition]
>
>"For example, schizophrenics often report oceanic feelings of oneness with the universe, but in a
>magic, delusional way. They describe feeling a loss of boundaries between themselves and others, a
>belief that leads them to think their thoughs are no longer private...And instead of viewing people,
>objects,and concepts as individual things, the often view them as members of larger and larger
>subclasses, a tendency that seems to be a way of expressing the holographic quality of the reality
>in which they find themselves."
>
>[3WD]
>So you see when Pirsig says;
>
>" Both lunatics and mystics have FREED themselves from the conventional static intellectual patterns
>of the culture." P373
>
>science is hot on the trail, suggesting they BOTH maybe dipping out of the same bowl. But where one
>sees fish, the other sees fowl.
>
>Which for some reason reminded me of a lead in to a radio " superhero" character I heard years ago.
>The piece always started with the human imitation of a chicken clucking.
>
>PLUK, PLUUUUK, PLUK
>He's Everywhere! He's Everywhere!
>It's Chickenman!
>
>I alway thought it was lunacy, but maybe, I just missed mysticism.
>
>3WD
>
>
>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
>Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
>MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
>
>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:00:42 BST