Hi Platt, & all
I think we are not far from agreement.
I think that Pirsig and Wilber would get along, at least on a
theoretical/philosophic basis. I do believe the two have different styles.
Pirsig, imo, is a Classicist at heart with Taoist philosophic sunglasses.
Phaedrus had a Romantic Taoist vision. Wilber is a Classicist with
Hindu/Romantic philosophic sunglasses. By all that I'm trying to explain
why Wilber happily talks of "swooning and singing praises and erotic
embracing" , while Pirsig keeps his 'philosophic sex life' private. It is a
matter of attitude and style.
I don't believe Wilber would be happy with ""let's all join hands and sing
Kumbya" emotionalism of the drug-sotted Hippie culture and the weekend
retreat Buddhology favored by incense-burning, pyramid worshipping New Age
Californians who hold Wilber up as the Second Coming." I do think he is
fervently passionate about explaining that the path he is on is the Right
Path, the way of the Eternal Tao.
Just as Pirsig in Lila wrote that he had earlier made a mistake and he is
now trying to correct it, so did Wilber. Pirsig happens to be more quiet
and reserved, so to speak, and thus wrote less. Wilber is more publically
prolific and has written a lot. But Wilber too says prior to 1995 he had
missed the mark and so he had to rework a lot of what he had previously
written. I think this show the two men have integrity and are conscientious
about what they say.
I also do not think that Wilber would "no doubt cite this as a prime example
of the pre/trans fallacy." I do not think anything Pirsig wrote would be
so classified by Wilber.
I think the two are different but none the less important. We should try to
replace either but we can do what they might not be able to do, and that is
take the best of both and apply them.
As for ..."has less chance of being corrupted than Wilber's exhortation,
"And this earth becomes a blessed being, and every I becomes a God, and
every WE becomes God's sincerest worship, and every IT becomes God's most
gracious temple." Whenever you speak in Romantic language you do run the
risk of being misunderstood and misused. When Wilber gets going he can
sound like a preacher, but his words are usually meant in a Classic way.
Every I becomes a God = since we were all made from the Tao, we all partake
of the Tao, thus we are to an extent that we listen to that inner voice, a
part of the Tao
We becomes God's sincerest worship= recognizing we are all, all humanity
from one Tao, one source, we should treat each other with that recognition
and thus act with reverence that we are all worthy of respect. Hey you
wouldn't steal from God would you? That sort of thing.
Every It becomes God's most gracious temple= the planet, all of it and all
the stuff we make is made of Tao-stuff. Don't make junk. Don't trash your
home. Make nice, Keep your room clean.
That's how I translate Wilber into practical/simplistic terms.
Proud to be told I can occasionally speak "quality through and through",
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: MD Shambolic. A review by Squonk. 13.
> Hi Gary, Bo & All:
>
> > Pirsig's Quality and Wilber's Integral vision can help us make a world
that
> > resonates with The Good, The True, The Beautiful and The Just. There is
> > not a good reason to battle between Pirsig and Wilber. This
competition,
> > this "it must be one or the other", is itself a failure brought on by
the
> > use of the two-value logic of Aristotelian systems. The path to sanity
is
> > the recognition that we must go beyond the black VS. white mentality.
It
> > is not a choice of one OR the other. This is a false choice brought on
by
> > allowing ourselves to be trapped by the rules of using A-logic. The
choice
> > is: BOTH. The choice is to blend absence with presence and produce the
> > gradation of light and dark, and the multitude of colors that really is
to
> > be seen all around us. The hard task is to realize that we have to
blend
> > the two. Both Pirsig and Wilber are tool makers and map makers. We
need
> > them both. Guide your life not only by one. If you listen to the voice
of
> > Pirsig, it will tell you that quality is found in not static limitation
but
> > in Dynamic expansion and integration. Which will lead you to Wilber's
> > Integral vision.
>
> Well, you may be right. But I'm not totally convinced, first, because I
> have great respect for Bo's interpretation of the MoQ, and second,
> because when I listen to the voice of Pirsig, I don't hear anything about
> God and swooning and singing praises and erotic embracing. I hear
> instead:
>
> "He remembered it had been spring then, which is a wonderful time in
> Montana, and the breeze blowing down from the pine trees carried a
> fresh smell of melting snow and thawing earth, and they were all walking
> down the road, four abreast, when one of those raggedy nondescript
> dogs that call Indian reservations home came onto the road and walked
> pleasantly in front of them. They followed the dog silently for a while.
> Then LaVerne asked John, "What kind of dog is that?"
>
> "John thought about it and said, "That's a good dog."
>
> "LaVerne had been asking the question within an Aristotelian
> framework. She wanted to know what genetic, substantive pigeonhole of
> canine classification this object walking before them could be placed in.
> But John Wooden Leg never understood the question. That's what made
> it so funny. He wasn't joking when he said, "That's a good dog." He
> probably thought she was worried the dog might bite her. The whole
> idea of a dog as a member of a hierarchical structure of intellectual
> categories known generically as "objects" was outside his traditional
> cultural viewpoint.
>
> "What was significant, Phaedrus realized, was that John had
> distinguished the dog according to its Quality, rather than according to
> its substance. That indicated he considered Quality more important.
> Now Phaedrus remembered when he had gone to the reservation after
> Dusenberry's death and told them he was a friend of Dusenberry's they
> had answered, "Oh, yes, Dusenberry. He was a good man." They
> always put their emphasis on the good, just as John had with the dog.
> A white person would have said he was a good man or balanced the
> emphasis between the two words. The Indians didn't see man as an
> object to whom the adjective "good" may or may not be applied. When
> the Indians used it they meant that good is the whole center of
> experience and that Dusenberry, in his nature, was an embodiment or
> incarnation of this center of life.
> "
> Maybe when Phaedrus got this metaphysics all put together people
> would see that the value-centered reality it described wasn't just a wild
> thesis off into some new direction but was a connecting link to a part of
> themselves which had always been suppressed by cultural norms and
> which needed opening up. He hoped so." (From LILA, Chap. 32)
>
> Wilber would no doubt cite this as a prime example of the pre/trans
> fallacy. But for me, Pirsig's voice is authentic. It strikes a deep,
> responsive chord in my soul. It avoids the "let's all join hands and sing
> Kumbya" emotionalism of the drug-sotted Hippie culture and the
> weekend retreat Buddhology favored by incense-burning, pyramid
> worshipping New Age Californians who hold Wilber up as the Second
> Coming.
>
> We Pirsig followers may be cultists, too. But, I think Pirsig's suggestion
> to shift one's outlook from "that's a mixed breed dog" to "that's a good
> dog" is more profound and has less chance of being corrupted than
> Wilber's exhortation, "And this earth becomes a blessed being, and
> every I becomes a God, and every WE becomes God's sincerest
> worship, and every IT becomes God's most gracious temple."
>
> Jonestown anyone?
>
> In any event, your's was "a good post," quality through and through.
> Thanks for joining the group and giving us the benefit of your thoughts.
>
> Platt
>
>
>
>
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