ROGER TRIES TO WEAVE TOGETHER SOME PHENOMENAL THREADS ON
THIS MONTH”S PROGRAM
Squad,
Forgive my cut and paste, but I need to integrate all the great posts
so far (I lost Donny’s 12/4 post somehow)
ROGER:
Any initial comments?
BODVAR :<<<<<<
I have come to realize that trying to "integrate" MOQ with current
thinking is useless. .>>>>>>
ROGER:
Agreed. Let us start with a definition of brain.......Anyone?
PLATT :<<<<<<<<
The brain is a biological pattern consisting of nerve tissue and chemicals
that mysteriously creates an organism’s awareness of it's environment.
The brain of man extends awareness to include himself.>>>>>>>>
ROGER:
What about mind?
PLATT:<<<<<<
Mind in the MoQ is more of a puzzle. Pirsig seems to use the word
interchangeably with intellect. >>>>>
ROGER :
This seems confusing and even sloppy
BO:<<<<<<<
If......we continue to speak about mind as if equal to
Q-Intellect, everything is screwed up.>>>>>>>
ROGER
So how are they related yet different?
BO:<<<<<<<<<<
We don't believe that a person goes into another dimension when
disappearing into an adjacent room, so we needn't move into a "mind"
dimension to think. But grrrr the SOM pursues me. I search for the
perfect metaphor here.>>>>>>>>>>>
ROGER:
I love it when you growl Bo! Would it be accurate to describe mind as
a certain set of intellectual patterns? Perhaps a self referential set of
patterns?
PLATT:<<<<<<<
Intellect (mind) is a pattern-recognizing,
pattern-creating force that employs the medium of language, numbers
and symbols to carry out its purpose which is basically to relate
perceptions into patterns of meaning so one can act to enhance life.
>>>>>>>>>>
ROGER
Let me take a stab at tieing all this together.....Would it be correct then
to say that Mind is a self referential pattern of thoughts concerning the
pattern recognizing, pattern-creating force that is associated with a
particular
Biological (brain) and social pattern?
As you think on that one, let’s move on to intellectual patterns. Platt
previously
summarized that there are three distinct types (at least) of thoughts.
1)Reverie, or
automatic thinking, 2) decision making, and 3) what I characterize as
logically consistent
reality models.
This is disturbing though. How can the first two types of thoughts be
considered superior
to social patterns? How can Pirsig state that “i want a cookie” type thoughts
is morally
superior to a government or religion? This is silly. And aren’t these social
patterns all
examples of implemented intellectual patterns? I think so.
XCTO:<<<<<<<
The first principles(intellectual patterns) were
choosing, organizing, and creating rituals and processes of passing on the
best of the Social patterns.>>>>>>>>>
ROGER: Hmmmm I am still confused.....
XCTO:<<<<<<<<
With the MOQ I think that divorce between
what we think about on social issues and how we reason in the scientific
village and how we talk about when we argue philosophical and moral issues
disappears and we are finally on the chessboard. I see many thread and paths
to follow so i will stop here and simply state that ALL social groups are in
this MOQ and thus all use intellectual patterns in their own little corners to
develop the best point of view that dynamically states reality to them.
>>>>>>>>>>
ROGER:
You seem to imply that the key distinction between a social pattern and an
intellectual
pattern is in their values. Social patterns pursue social good, intellectual
patterns pursue
truth. It seems therefore that a thought could be viewed as both an
intellectual pattern,
and a social pattern... For example “Democracy”. This can be viewed or judged
both
from its social utility and its logical consistency.
Bo, what do you think?
BO:<<<<<<<<
The Intellectual level of MOQ is no "measurement" or
consciousness of an objective world...etc, but merely (not "mere" but
..) one reality level.>>>>>>>>>>
ROGER: Consciousness...... how does this fit in with the discussion?
BO:<<<<<<<
Human beings conscious..????? What sets the MOQ apart from SOM is
that it rejects the intellect-as-mind-as-consciousness-as-awareness
notion.
Nowhere (in XCTO’s post did he) imply
the trite SOMish notion that Q-Intellect is "awakening to
consciousness" or "awareness of objective reality". Quality's
intellect was once social value that grew - Grew - GREW and G R E W
until it suddenly was a morality all of itself that no longer could
serve Society.>>>>>>>>>
ROGER
It is starting to come together for me now, but I am still a bit fuzzy on
these concepts.
Brains, minds, social patterns, thoughts and intellectual constructs. They
all blend
together and apart like a fugue. Perhaps the music of reality requires the
interchange?
Your thoughts are appreciated.
Be Good All
Roger
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