well, jonathan, i welcome those who profess to have an open mind. you say:
This speaks to me. First you have to "open your eyes and see", then
"close your eyes and see".
lithien:
this reminds me of:
It is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is
invisible to the eye.
i still welcome you enthusiastically,
Lithien
~*~all paths lead to the inevitable conclusion that logic fails
miserably when confronted with the mystery of existence~*~
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan B. Marder <marder@agri.huji.ac.il>
To: Lila Squad <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: MD mysticism
>JONATHAN, THE RATIONAL MYSTIC AND MYSTICAL RATIONALIST
>
>Hi Lilacs,
>
>Thanks to Mary, Lithien, Kilian, Donny, David Buchanan and others (sorry
>for forgetting anyone) for clarifying what we mean by mysticism vs.
>rationalism. While Lithien ecstatically welcomes newcomers to the
>mystics camp, I still want to hover on the edge.
>
>David says:
>>And maybe the reason for their persistence is based on the false belief
>>that there are two choices; rational and irrational. If there were only
>>two I'd be in the rationalist camp. BUT mysticism isn't irrational.
>>MYSTICISM IS POST-RATIONAL.
>
>Mysticism etymologically means that something is HIDDEN. It strikes me
>that "hidden" is an ambiguous word. There is an "objective" hidden,
>where something is intrinsically unknowable. There is a subjective
>hidden where the "subject" just hasn't yet found or noticed the hidden
>"object". It seems that philosophical mysticism refers to the first
>hidden (unknowable), while rationalism recognises the second
>(things hidden till we find them).
>
>Fintan calls himself a "mystic", yet I interpret his "Bargain with God"
>as pure rationalism. The essay says to me "This is it! I am God and I
>will show you everything. It's up to you to open your eyes and see it".
>Did I get it Fintan?
>
>But...
>
>Since there are an infinity of things to see and learn, and an infinity
>of ways to see them, some part of reality must always remain unseen. In
>this sense I am a mystic.
>
>
>DAVID:
>>One arrives at mysticism in a flash of insight, they say, but the
>>secret is that it usually happens only after years of training. The
>flash of
>>insight isn't some gift from the heaven in answer to all those prayers,
>>its more like the flowering of a cultivatred mind. Its as if all the
>>experiences finally click together into one simple thing.
>
>This speaks to me. First you have to "open your eyes and see", then
>"close your eyes and see".
>Far from calling mysticism "post-rational", I would call mystic insight
>a
>part of rationalism.
>Insight allows you to assess the result of a "logical" analysis, and
>reject an "unreasonable" result. Computers can't do that. There is some
>interesting stuff on the web about how emotion is PART of rational
>thought - a good start might be articles by Rosalind Picard (see MoQ web
>site for link).
>
>So Lithien, David B. I claim that this mysticism vs. rationalism is not
>a useful division. I belong to both camps.
>
>Jonathan B. Marder <MARDER@agri.huji.ac.il>
>Department of Agricultural Botany, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
>Faculty of Agriculture, P.O.Box 12, Rehovot 76100, ISRAEL
>Phone: +972 8 9481918 Fax: +972 8 9467763
>Web page: http://www.agri.huji.ac.il/~marder
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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