Dear all
For those of you who were not members of the old Lila Squad I've copied
the newsletters sent out to the group during its year long existence at
the bottom of this post. After the last Lila Squad post I closed the
group and along with Horse opened the unmoderated moq_discuss which is
where we are now.
Part of the resaon for closing the Lila Squad was because it was run on
my 28.8 dial up connection which is dodgy at the best of times. It
really did take a long time to check all those posts every night. But
mainly it was because, in spite of being moderated, perhaps 90% of posts
were irrelevant and that was far too many to cut. I didn't mind
_spending_ time on it, but there's a difference between spending time
and wasting time.
I believe the problem was that the Lila Squad was the only Pirsig
mailing list on the net and so it was expected to be all things to
everyone. There was (and is now on moq_discuss) a group who want things
to be slower, more thoughtful and mature but they were (and are)
outnumbered. However, when you are the only shop in town you have to be
a general store whether you like it or not, thus the boutique-style Lila
Squad was closed and the moq_discuss supermarket was opened.
After some discussion with the old Lila Squad committee (Horse, Keith,
Magnus, Bodvar and me) we've decided that rather than try and moderate
moq_discuss we should leave it as an open forum (to keep the masses
happy) and reopen the Lila Squad as a closed forum for those who want a
more structured dialog. Having two lists - one moderated and one
unmoderated should keep everyone happy.
We are still figuring out the details but basically it will be a
continuation of the old Lila Squad although this time it will be on
Horse's server and a lot faster. To ease the burden on any one
individual we have decided that we shall take turns at moderating the
list (other LS members can also volunteer to do this). We will probably
structure the dialog around PROGRAMs and we will limit posts to one a
day with all posts being transferred at once. We are also thinking of
insisting that members must post at least one message every two weeks in
order to remain on the list - this might sound strange but commitment to
a group doesn't just mean not abusing it, you must also actively support
it.
Your comments on this are appreciated but please bear in mind that the
Lila Squad is supposed to be a list for thinkers not for socializers. If
that isn't your idea of fun, don't join.
I will leave for the UK tonight and will be back in Hong Kong on January
2. I hope we can get the Lila Squad relaunched around the beginning of
January. Horse is going to work on a charter for moq_discuss so that we
can clarify the differences between the two lists. I will post
instructions and more details here and to the website as soon as we have
finalized them.
Hope you all have a great Christmas!
Diana
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lila Squad Newsletters 18 August 1997 - 7 August 1998
7 August 1998
As you may have gathered from some posts last week I
haven't been moderating the LS very efficiently recently. In
fact the whole process has become so time consuming and,
dare I say it, thankless, that I've pretty much given up
altogether and I might as well make it official. Apologies to
those who have supported this method but it just isn't
practical any more. I hope we can stick to the PROGRAMs
and maintain a focussed discussion, but the Lila Squad will no
longer be moderated. We will also be moving to another
server shortly which will transfer all posts instantly, but more
about that when it's ready.
Donny has submitted a new essay to the forum on the subject
of Can logic be institutionalized? He looks at the role of
philosophy, institutions, reason and education and it's well
worth checking out.
We have a rather colorful bunch of new subscribers, bios are
on the squad page. Newbies, please join in as soon as you
want. Oldbies, please be gentle with them;-)
1 August 1998
Well time out for the Dynamic-static split I guess. If you
want to make a final stand on it send something before
Monday and I'll put it through. As I said before it would be
nice to have some essay-answers to this debate (and the
SOM debate) for latching purposes. Nobody's actually sent
one yet though I understand that a few members are working
on them. Please send these directly to me and I'll put them on
the forum.
If you want to continue on the D/S split please post to
sci.philosophy.meta. It might also be worth dropping a note
to the person you're replying to just to let them know you've
put an answer there.
Our next debate is on the four levels and I'll send out a
program post for that shortly. And another reminder to look
at Maggie and Glove's pages which both deal with the levels.
Unfortunately Maggie's URL was incorrect in the last
newsletter, but this one is definitely right! And don't forget
Mark Lencho's Who are you and what should you do, for a
rough guide to the static levels and their moral implications.
We've had a lot of new subscribers in the past two weeks but
we've yet to hear from most of them. I know it's difficult to
join in a conversation that seems to have been going on for
months. However with the new topic -- the four levels -- we
will be starting from scratch and I hope you'll see this as an
opportunity to jump into the fray.
In response to numerous requests we finally have an archive
of posts online. This is searchable and goes back to the
beginning of the squad. Thanks to Magnus for creating this
invaluable resource.
We have two excellent new essays in the forum: Sojourner on
the "giants" of social patterns and new member Lorenz Gude
on the Dharmakya light.
Andrew has been urging us all to read Ken Wilber for insights
into Dynamic and static value and he recommends the
following websites for further reading:
The World of Ken Wilber : This is a page dedicated to Wilber
by Frank Visser, who translates Wilber's work into Dutch. He
actually visited Ken, and has audio clips on his site that are an
interesting twist.
The PL Ken Wilber site : A nice site, not exactly up to the
minute, but still rich in material.
Ken Wilber Online : Ken's publisher, Shambhala, has this site
for him, advertising both books and thought. Some good
exclusive interviews, etc.
For those interested in AI and the MoQ Jonathan
recommends this site:
Human and Machine dignity : Rosalind Picard, author of the
book, ``Affective Computing'' describes how computers can
be given certain emotional abilities, how emotions can be
regarded as an integral and essential part of human rationality.
This idea comes very close to the "coherence of romantic and
classical understanding" a core idea in Robert Pirsig's
philosophy.
If anyone else has links or articles which they think would be
interesting to the squad please send them on to me.
23 July 1998
A reminder that the topic for August is supposed to be "the
four levels of quality and their relationships" and "SOM
platypi and MoQ solutions" is the topic for September. Both
Maggie and Glove have webpages which deal with the 4
levels so check them out if you want to get a head start on
the subject.
This doesn't mean the D/S split is finished yet, we still have a
week to go. If you think you've got it sussed can you write
up a summary of your views on the subject and send it to
me. Coming to a consensus about it is clearly too difficult at
this stage but we can still create some latching by
documenting our thoughts so far.
New in the Forum is an essay from Jonathan on science and
objectivity - definitely worth reading.
And we have more new recruits on the squad page.
Plus, a reminder that several of the Lila Squad have reared
their heads on the sci.philosophy.meta newsgroup and if you
want to discuss Pirsig stuff other than the LS topics that's the
place to go. If your ISP doesn't carry it, try DejaNews
instead
10 July 1998
Lots of news today.
First we have this posh new website with our own domain
name. Please check it out fully and let me know if you have
anything to submit to the forum.
Second in order to provide room for free discussion outside
of the LS topics we're trying to set up a newsgroup. This can
take a while but one thing we can all do to help is start
participating actively in current newsgroups so that we can
demonstrate publically that there's a lot of interest in the
subject.
Back at the LS ranch, we will stick to our focused debate. To
make it easier to keep track of what's going on we thought
we should allocate one topic per calendar month. At the
moment the schedule is:
July: Dynamic vs static split
August: The four levels of Quality
September: SOM platypi and MoQ solutions
I know this means dragging the D/S topic on for a while but
it's an important subject and deserves proper consideration. If
you think you've got it all figured out try writing an essay for
the website.
As many of the posts recently have the same subject line, it's
become difficult to follow different threads of thought. With
the topics clearly allocated to calendar months there's no need
to stick to the same subject title in each post, so can everyone
please use a descriptive subject line in their posts. The subject
should something that catches the essence of their thought.
People who want to comment and follow-up on a particular
post should reply using the same subject line, while those
starting new lines of thought in the discussion should use a
new title.
Recent subscribers will find their bios are finally on the squad
page. We also have an essay from Richard and a poem from
Sojourner in the forum.
27th June 1998
We're back online and more than a dozen posts should be
arriving in your inbox any moment now.
For the benefit of the new members, the LS has been offline
for the past week which is why there's been a delay in
subscribing you to the list. Before the break we were
discussing the dynamic/static split and it looks like we'll have
to continue on that for at least another couple of weeks.
Please don't hesistate to join in the debate -- we always
welcome newcomers.
17th June 1998
We're going to have to take a break from Fri 19th to Thurs
24th as I suddenly have to leave town and there's nobody to
take care of the list. Sorry for the short notice but I've only
just learned myself. If you have anything urgent to share with
the world regarding the D/S split please get it in by Friday (or
Thurs night if you're in the US).
We are working on moving the list to another server so
hopefully this is the last time this will happen. In the
meantime the break will give everyone time to enjoy the
footie.
31st May 1998
The end of May is upon us. It seems rather arbitrary to stop
the SOM discussion in mid stream but I'm afraid if we don't
draw the line somewhere it's going to go on forever.
It would have been nice if we'd reached a conclusion, but I
guess we haven't. The best I can suggest is that we prepare
some kind of summary in the form of:
The topic "Explain the subject-object
metaphyics" was raised and the following
answers were suggested..... <>
A few people have already volunteered "answers" but there
have also been revisions so I'm not entirely sure what the
final versions are supposed to be. Can anybody that wants to
propose an answer please send their final offering to me
directly (including those who've already posted one to the
list). I'll put them altogether somewhere for reference. It's not
a perfect solution but hopefully if/when we come round to
this topic again it will save us from going over the same
ground again.
And the next topic is explain the dynamic-static split.
So let's get busy...
15th May 1998
After some discussion in the steering committee we decided
to end the "Explain the Subject-Object Metaphysics" program
on 31st May. Between then and now we should be thinking
about summing up and coming to some kind of conclusion.
I've posted most of the messages up [page has since been
deleted]. A few have been left out either because they were
too long or they weren't relevant (well you were warned!).
The next topic will be "Explain the Dynamic-static split".
If you're desperate to talk about something else, please
consider writing an essay for the forum. We haven't had any
additions to that page for ages and it would be nice to see
something new. Send your essays directly to me in the body
of an email and I'll mark them up in html and post them up
there.
Another gaggle of new members have signed up. We've
already heard from some of them. Check out the
ever-growing squad page to find out more about them.
22nd April 1998
Things are still a bit iffy, but I've had more positive feedback
than negative about Plan B, so I think we'll keep on trooping.
The now-established Lila Squad committee is:
Magnus Berg, qmgb@bull.se
Ken Clark, clark@netsites.net
Keith A. Gillette, gillette@tahc.state.tx.us
Maggie Hettinger, hettingr@iglou.com
Horse, horse@wasted.demon.nl
Diana McPartlin, diana@asiantravel.com
Bodvar Skutvik, skutvik@online.no
If you want to discuss anything about the running of the
squad please contact me or one of others (especially Ken
because he doesn't get enough email).
For the benefit of our new subscribers the current Lila Squad
topic is "Explain the subject-object metaphysics". Not sure
that we've actually achieved anything but if anyone wants to
have a go at summing it all up and coming to a conclusion
please go ahead.
13th April 1998
"Can you do addition?" the White Queen asked.
"What's one and one and one and one and one
and one and one and one and one and one?"
"I don't know," said Alice. "I lost count."
"She can't do addition," the Red Queen
interrupted.
Actually Alice can do addition. And she can do algebra and
trig and physics and chemistry and psychology and relativity
and complementarity and artificial intelligence and fuzzy logic
and Kant and Marx and Descartes and Hegel and Lao Zi. But
she isn't going to get anywhere if she tries to do them all at
once.
To refresh everyone's memory: "The objective of the Lila
Squad is to look more closely at the MoQ and to come to
some consensus about what the MoQ says, how appropriate
it is and how we can use it."
Older members of the squad will recall that I have repeatedly
asked people to keep things simple and structured so that this
objective can be met. I had hoped that this would happen
naturally, but obviously it isn't going to.
So we shall move to plan B.
A topic will be proposed. LS members are invited to post
their opinions on the topic. All posts meeting the requirements
of relevance, clarity, brevity, courtesy and intellectual rigor
will be forwarded to the squad. Any posts that don't meet
these requirements will be deleted.
I know this is harsh but please understand that it's not
because I don't think anybody else has anything interesting to
say but because I *do* think others have interesting things to
say and I wish to clear some space so that I can hear them.
That's not an insult. That's a compliment.
15 March 1998
Yikes, we haven't had a newsletter for six weeks! No new
essays but we have got new recruits from Brazil, Italy and
Wales -- the Lila Squad's rise to world domination is surely
only moments away.
I'd like to start a Lila Squad steering committee to discuss
various administrative issues. Backseat drivers I can do
without, but if you've got ideas AND are willing to make
these ideas happen then please send me a note. This applies to
new members and old, lurkers and non-lurkers, in fact
anybody who can spend a couple of hours a month helping
develop the group.
31st January 1998
In response to popular demand I've reinstated the big Q on
the front of the website. I guess I just got sick of looking at
it, but apparently a lot of people liked it so back it goes.
I've had a crisis of faith in our ability to establish principles. I
know it was a bit naughty of me to publish them on the site
before we had agreed on them [nb they have since been
deleted] but I figured I had to do something to get everyone's
attention and in any case it would only take a week or two to
get them right. I now feel that it will take several months and
it's misleading to leave something unfinished up in public like
that. The principles are still there but now they're preceded by
an explanation that this is a work in progress and an invitation
for people to comment on them.
As was anticipated, the copyright for Lila lies with the
publishers and it seems unlikely that they will give permission
for it to be published on the Web, so we're going to have to
give up that idea.
New in the forum is Mark Lencho's What we are which he
recently posted to the mailing list. I've also added a review of
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Michael
Wood, first published in New Society.
16th January 1998
Many of you have already noticed that I've changed the
format of the website. It should load faster and be easier to
navigate now. I've turned the "what?" page into a FAQ
dealing with administrative stuff and the questions and
answers from Bodvar about Pirsig and his whereabouts. I've
also created a new page called MoQ and I've posted the
Principles of the MoQ up there [now deleted].
Bodvar and Maggie are working on converting Lila to a digital
format although we still haven't heard anything from Pirsig
about it.
As ever we have an assortment of new subscribers most of
whom have sent bios. And if you haven't already seen it "The
Good in everyone" by Samuel Palmer is now in the forum.
In response to Ken's inquiry there has been no plague,
Armageddon or satanic possession on the LS recently, but
hopefully things will pick up in the spring;-)
4th January 1998
Happy New Year!
The Lila Squad is officially open for business so let's get
those brain cells buzzing again. I hope everyone has had a
refreshing break and is ready for an action-packed 1998.
For the benefit of our four new subscribers (amongst them
the self-confessed "Daughter of Ken Clark")(bios will follow
shortly), the LS has been working on establishing a set of
principles/basics of the Metaphysics of Quality. Several of us
have posted suggestions for this and they're gathered together
on our secret page (anyone not in the squad who wants to
see this please drop me a note and I'll give you the URL).
This is a work in progress so please check it out and tell us
what you think.
And for the rest of you, welcome back, let's get posting
again, I can't wait to get started:-)
21st December 1997
Okay that's it, time up, the Lila Squad is officially on holiday
until 3rd January '98! I've just added three new members bios
and put Bo's version of the principles up on the Web site
[now deleted]. If you're at a loose end over the next couple of
weeks please take the time to go over the principles and see
what you make of them. I haven't had time to consider all
James' recent comments but I did think that his suggestion
that the principles should show how Quality is related to
"reality," "truth," "consciousness," and "morality" was well
worth bearing in mind.
Facing a break from the squad has given me a chance to
reflect on the past four months. I have to say the mailing list
has become far more sucessful than I ever anticipated. We
now have 38 members with a couple more signing up every
week. It has been a joy to find so many other people willing
to discuss the MoQ and my understanding of Pirsig's work
(not to mention reality;-) is certainly much clearer.
I'd like to thank everyone for participating with such
enthusiasm and for making so many superb contributions to
the forum. I'd also like to thank everyone for being so patient
with me as I figure out how to run this thing.
I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas and look forward
to seeing you all again in the new year.
10th December 1997
In spite of rumblings of discontent, several people (Dave,
Martin, Magnus, Ken, me) have offered up principles of the
MoQ and I've put them altogether on a single page. I think we
should keep this for the eyes of the Lila Squad only for now
as it is a work in progress, so it isn't in the navigation system
of the rest of the website.
We also have a couple of new members, so check out the
squad page. Please join in folks! I'm sure I speak for
everyone when I say that fresh perspectives are always
welcome.
29th October 1997
Four new members since the last update. Amongst them
Martin Striz who has a website about Quality and David
Thomas who has also submitted an essay for the Lila Squad
site.
Doug has sent me a list of questions as a basis for our
proposed FAQ (frequently asked questions). I've posted them
in the [now defunct] threads section. Doug has also
suggested that we take one question each week and try and
answer it. Sounds good to me. If you want to add more
questions to the list please send them on.
15th October 1997
More updates on the Web site. Doug has written to Pirsig on
the question of whether the MoQ is extensible. Pirsig has
replied and I've put both those letters in the Forum.
There are also two new reviews of LILA in the Forum. Both
of them are decidedly unfavorable, but for the most part their
criticisms don't amount to much more than name calling.
Still, it's interesting to see how other people have reacted to
LILA.
It would be nice to build up the site some more. Please send
me anything you've written or any reviews or links that you
think are relevant. Also, if you feel like submitting the URL to
any search engines or directories please just go ahead. So far
I've done Altavista, Infoseek, Yahoo, Hotbot... and that's
about it.
1st October 1997
Sorry, no exciting messages from Pirsig this week. But we
have SIX new members -- only two of whom have sent bios
though. A few people have asked me if bios are compulsory.
No, it is your constitutional right to lurk anonymously if you
wish;-)
Our new members include James McCabe who has his own
Pirsig site. Please check out his pages if you haven't already.
Other things that have come up:
Mail management is becoming a problem. In case anyone
missed it Lars suggests using Pegasus for Windows . Any
other advice is welcome.
I'm all for setting up FAQs and archives, but as I'm finding it
hard enough to keep the Web site up to date I can't offer to
do it myself. Any volunteers? One of the reasons for getting a
Geocities homepage (other than cos I'm cheap) was so that it
wouldn't just be *my* website. It's easy enough to share the
password with others so that they can update sections of the
site directly.
I have this feeling that we should have our own LS greetings
and adieux like "live long and prosper" or as Doug says
"Many truths to you". In keeping with the message in the last
paragraph of LILA maybe ET's way of saying "bye for now"
would be most appropriate.......Be good.
20th September 1997
More additions to the Forum page: quotes from Eugen
Herrigel's Zen in the Art of Archery, Doug's review of Lila
and, by popular demand, Platt's "Say Hello to Now."
The only new bio is Gene's, we have a few other new
subscribers but no details yet.
I got an email about the Lila Squad from Robert M Pirsig.
Sadly he declined to join the list but here are his comments:
I stumbled across your stunning Athens Forum
site last night and called Wendy to the
computer. When we had finished reading it all
we took out a bottle of cognac and celebrated.
The MOQ is at last out of my hands. Other
people are at last sustaining it on a continuing
social basis. I can disappear tomorrow and it
will keep on going. This is a major event in its
history.
All day I've wondered how much I should
participate, and the Zen answer keeps repeating
itself: "Don't! You will just shut everyone else
up. They'll all sit back and wait for the great
author to speak and that is the worst thing that
could happen." The material for the MOQ is not
something I invented out of thin air. It has been
lying dormant within the culture for centuries. I
have mined probably less than one per cent of
what is there. The best readers will pay minimal
attention to what I have found and maximal
attention to what I have missed. That's where
the excitement is.
I think that's a thumbs up :-)
6th September 1997
Phew! Finally got that EMM paper finished. It's online on the
old geocities site. The section headings (apart from the
Metaphysics of Quality) were added by me to make it more
manageable.
I've also added several new bios. We are getting a steady
stream (okay, trickle) of new members so please check them
out.
Much of the debate on the LS is focused on quantum physics
at the moment. This is great and it's certainly an important
part of the MoQ. However the MoQ also has much relevance
to politics, religion, art, culture, the paranormal, evolution,
psychology, spirituality and EVERYTHING. If you're
interested in any of these things, please start posting!
27th August 1997
After a few hiccups, the list seems to be running smoothly.
We are now up to 12 members. Please check out the new
bios on the squad page; we are nothing if not diverse. I'm
putting the newest members at the top of the list now - got
sick of seeing my own bio all the time.
Jason has submitted a well-annotated list of Pirsig links and
I've put them up on the links page. If anyone knows of any
more relevant links please let me know.
Please also check out Doug's framework for the MoQ which
is now on the reviews (btw I'm renaming this page
"writings").
It would probably be useful to maintain an archive of posts
on the website, but I'm afraid I don't have time. Any
volunteers??
I trust you are all enjoying the mental gymnastics as much as
I am:-)
22nd August 1997
Lila chat
On September 24th at 9:30PM (central time: GMT - 4 hours)
there will be a Lila discussion hosted by the Undernet Book
Discussion Group.
21st August 1997
Up, up and away
Having discovered that the geocities address won't work with
my listserver, I've moved the server to a different address.
Some comments on how the listserver works. Any messages
sent to the server address are automatically copied and sent
out to everyone on the subscriber list. A header and footer are
added and the abbreviation "LS" (Lila Squad) is added to the
subject line. The server only recognizes messages from email
addresses on the subscriber list, so if an unauthorized person
tries to post or if you spell your return address wrongly the
messages will not distributed to the list, but will go to my
personal account by default. I cannot check the messages
before they go out. I have a dial up connection so messages
will only be sent when I am online. Sometimes you may find
they are redistributed instantly, other times it may be several
hours.
I am really looking at this as a temporary situation. Over the
next few months I will consider other alternatives, perhaps a
bulletin board or moving the listserver to a computer with an
open line connection. But it all depends on how active the list
becomes.
21st August 1997
Seven subscribers now
That seems like enough to me so I sent out our first list letter.
I've also listed this site on a couple of search engines and
posted the URL to a few newsgroups.
A few people have suggested gathering more published and
unpublished material about Pirsig and putting it on this site. I
think it's a great idea as I'm sure you'll agree there really isn't
much available online at the moment. If you have anything
that you think others would be interested in send it along to
me .
18th August 1997
Headline news - the Lila Squad is born!
Almost
I'm tentatively launching a mailing list. Only got three
subscribers so far but it's a start. First I want to do some
brainstorming just to figure out what we're going to do. Once
we get ourselves focused, and once I've got more info up on
these pages, I'm going to have a bigger launch - ie spam a
few newsgroups and submit the URL to search engines and
possible link partners.
Anyone want to help with this? Let me know.
homepage - http://www.moq.org
queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
body of email
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