JONATHAN ON MONTHLY TOPIC
(includes the subject threads "3 vs. 4 levels" and "Social values")
Hi XCTO, Roger, Bodvar and LilaQs,
XCTO wrote [in 2 posts on 16th Dec]:-
>Where does the Law of Gravity go?
and
>And what is metaphysics?
This isn't an answer, but let first me say that this "obsession" with
dropping everything into little boxes isn't always useful, and leads to
"platypuses". I got drawn into the trap by classifying the "Law of
Gravity" as inorganic. It's not wrong, but others answers are possible.
Let's try the question "Where does phlogiston theory belong?".
The question "where does it go?" is all wrong. The question should be
"What does it mean?" in which case I could turn it back to XCTO and ask
"what do you intend it to mean?". MEANING is the key word here.
So, what does metaphysics mean? Metaphysics is about sorting out what
constitutes reality.
MAGNUS wrote (16th Dec]:-
[Question was - explain what non-thought IntPoVs there are?]
>I mean the plot of a book, the contents of this post, an arrow made
>of sticks on a forest path to show the way, the MoQ, ...
Those are all patterns of MEANING. In my answer to Roger below, I divide
"Intellectualisation" into 3 stages. Magnus's examples belong to the
"communicative" stage.
ROGER wrote [19 Dec]:-
>TO BODVAR:
>
>You say that Q-intellect is subject/object logic.
>
My question to both Bodvar and Roger is "what's the difference between
IntPoV, Q-Intellect and plain intellect?"
To me intellect is the processing, combination and testing of abstract
patterns (thoughts).
[snip]
>TO JONATHAN:
> As per above, 1) How do you define the value forces of your new
definition of
>intellect, and how do they differ (if at all) from those of society?
>
Firstly, I didn't (till now) offer any real definition of intellect.
Except for Bodvar's SOLAQI, we don't have any real definitions of
Intellect. Who defined intellect in the Squad? Where did Pirsig define
it? One of our major problems in discussing Intellect and the
Intellectual Level is this lack of definition. I personally ran into
trouble by
using the word "intellectualisation".
I think it may be useful to divide the intellectualisation process into
three:-
1. Pattern perception/registration. This is the actual experience of an
event, where DQ gives rise to SQ.
2. Memorisation. The experience enters memory in some form. Inevitably,
the "data" memorised is a subset, i.e. a summary. Literary summaries are
also called "abstracts" and a memory is inevitably an abstraction.
3. Communication. To convey a memorised experience to another person
inevitably involves a further abstraction into language of some sort
(visual or verbal) using agreed symbols and conventions.
Note that communication operates at the social level. It is a
fundamental process (value) within that level. This may be a source of
confusion. Society is related to BioPoV and InorganicPoV via COMPLEXITY,
but communication is related to pattern perception by ABSTRACTION.
Pirsig took the step from SocPoV to Intellect assuming that it was a
move up into a new level of complexity. That gave him the fourth level.
I maintain that what he was really talking about abstraction arising
from manipulation of symbols of communication.
ROGER
>I say that the way to define or evaluate the levels is to look at their
value
>forces or directions rather than by focusing on static examples. (Glove
may be
>similar to this too?) For example, the Biological level is defined by
the
>values of survival, consumption and replication, NOT by DNA, pandas or
>rainforests. The latter are emergent phenomena of the former underlying
>values.
>
>2) What is your feedback on my statement?
I don't fully understand your "forces or directions". Patterns differ in
stability. Some have an obvious inbuilt tendency to change in a certain
direction e.g. the molecules of a water drop have a natural tendency to
evaporate. By considering multiple patterns together, you often observe
new "emergent" tendencies of the ensemble - we call this complexity.
Regards to you LilaQs one and all,
Jonathan
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