Hello Roger, Bodvar, Jonathan and everyone
Jonathan:
>Firstly, I didn't (till now) offer any real definition of intellect.
Except for Bodvar's SOLAQI, we don't have any real definitions of
>Intellect. Who defined intellect in the Squad? Where did Pirsig define
it? One of our major problems in discussing Intellect and the
>Intellectual Level is this lack of definition. I personally ran into
trouble by
>using the word "intellectualisation".
Glove:
i am unconvinced as yet that Bodvar's SOLAQI is a definition of the
intellect. the "conception" of SOLAQI is an intellect level pattern of value
arising from social patterns of value instilled in us all, yes, i can agree
with that part. and that conception process would seem to be the intellect
level at work in Bodvar as an individual. but when that conception is shared
and agreed on by others, it becomes a social pattern of value. the only way
it could remain an intellect pattern of value would be by not sharing it
with others perhaps?
to define intellect in the Metaphysics of Quality, it must arise from the
social level. yet for the social level to exist, we must first conceive of
it via the intellect and turn it into a Quality Event. its kind of a
chicken-or-egg-first type question that cannot be answered using our linear
notion of Time. so to attempt to define the intellect, we should perhaps ask
ourselves just what a Quality Event is.
Glove: (A Quality Event, 12/6/98)
>is the conception of a Quality Event the intellect at work? there is
certainly much more involved that simply the intellect, in my opinion, for
>without the inorganic and biological levels, consciousness would not arise
in the first place. and the interaction of the life form with its
>environment seems as if it belongs to the social level entirely. but is it
the intellect that "conceives" the Quality Event before it occurs? and how
>does it do that?
ROGER:
>I say that the way to define or evaluate the levels is to look at their
value
>forces or directions rather than by focusing on static examples. (Glove
may be
>similar to this too?) For example, the Biological level is defined by
the
>values of survival, consumption and replication, NOT by DNA, pandas or
>rainforests. The latter are emergent phenomena of the former underlying
>values.
>
>2) What is your feedback on my statement?
Jonathan:
>I don't fully understand your "forces or directions". Patterns differ in
stability. Some have an obvious inbuilt tendency to change in a certain
>direction e.g. the molecules of a water drop have a natural tendency to
evaporate. By considering multiple patterns together, you often observe
>new "emergent" tendencies of the ensemble - we call this complexity.
Glove:
i am unclear about just how value forces operate either. but i think the
"built-in tendency" of a water molecule to evaporate is the environment the
molecule happens to be in. researchers recently discovered the possibility
of water on the moon, frozen at the bottom of deep craters, impervious to
evaporation.
taking Jonathans last sentence, if we consider multiple patterns together in
their entirety, we have conceived a Quality Event. just how do the resultant
new patterns arise though? they arise thru an abstraction or "trance"
state. Jonathan seems to agree when he says:
Jonathan:
>Society is related to BioPoV and InorganicPoV via COMPLEXITY,
but communication is related to pattern perception by ABSTRACTION.
>Pirsig took the step from SocPoV to Intellect assuming that it was a
move up into a new level of complexity. That gave him the fourth level.
>I maintain that what he was really talking about abstraction arising
from manipulation of symbols of communication.
Glove:
perhaps it would be worth while exploring just what an abstraction is. from
Websters Handy College Dictionary:
abstraction: (1) state of being preoccuppied or inattentive (2) an abstract
idea, concept, etc.
abstract: (1) to consider in general terms (2) to take away, steal
if what Pirsig was talking about as the intellect level in the Metaphysics
of Quality is an abstraction of social level patterns of value, then it is a
destruction of a constructed notion of the social level patterns of value we
all agree with, in my opinion. that is the nature of the underlying Forces
of Value at work within each static quality level...the creative and
discreative Dynamic forces at work in the universe.
best wishes to all,
glove
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