ROGER JUMPS IN ON DONNY'S COMMENTS TO BODVAR THAT COMPLEXIFY THE ELEGANCE OF
THE LEVELS, ALSO THE VALUE OF THE MOQ, AND A NOTE TO DAVID
To Donny, Bo , Glove and David
BO WRITES:<<The most simple characterization of Q-society is the
value of the whole at the cost of the part, so it starts lower down
the Q-biology than humankind. A baboon tribe is a stricter society
than anything human, but no Q-intellect is needed for them to
understand social signals.>>>
DONNY ANSWERS:<<<<<<Let me explane that, how I see it, you don't have social
values in wolf packs or ape tribes... ......These criters have "social groups"
and "pack order," but I don't
think that's what costitutes the social level. In LILA, RMP talks about
the social level in terms of "the Giant." That's the key idea. Bodvar is
hitting on it when he speaks of sacroficing the parts for the whole... but
these criters (wolves, etc.) are worried about the species, continuing
there genetic line, procreation... This is still Darwinian values. Even
when ape tribes fight over turf that's a fight concerning food, survivle
and ultimatly survival (and procreation) of the fitest, you see?>>>>>
ROGER : I think The Giant and lifestyles and ideals are all complicated
patterns arriving out of the complex bio/socio/intellectual dance. I agree
wholeheartedly with Bo's simple stripping of the social level down to it's raw
defining components. These involve , as he said, supporting the group for the
benefit of the many. Apes and wolves are actually better and cleaner examples
in my opinion than are humans.
As for your argument that these are biological values.......of course they
are, originally. As RMP says, all levels emerge to offer freedom to those
below. The pack is a more successful biological strategy in many cases. But
once groups form, they get a life of their own. The strongest packs stay that
way by valuing the many even if it is (occasionally) at the expense of any
one. Society or pack or tribe become the new pattern. Eventually the
patterns of society that thrive and multiply and grow are those that sustain
themselves best, and evolve as needed while avoiding needless deterioration.
THE GIANT is a very advanced socially influenced pattern.
DONNY:<<<<<And, further, only societies generate/*embody* IntPoVs. The
emergance of the IntPoVs is when a society comits itself to live, change
and die by "the truth" (highest value ideas/worldviews). 1914-18.>>>>>>
Your original statement along this line last month was why I voted for
Intellect for this months topic (along with grasping Bo's SOLAQI). At 1st I
agreed with you, but now I see I was wrong. "I want a cookie" thots, and
insanity and Robinson Crusoe thots are IPoV's. Again, I believe you are
equating very advanced and complex IPoV's with all the intellect. The
intellect again is formed simply by practical, consistent, conceptual
abstractions or maps of reality. A higher quality Intellectual pattern must be
communicated to spread and grow, but a low quality one like "Did I put the
clothes in the dryer?" counts too.
I see evolutionary forces of value at work at each level. Each level has
different values and therefore different patterns of success (and failure)
emerge. The key to understand each level is not IMHO to focus on patterns
such as The Giant or my wet clothes, it is to focus on these base values or ,
as Pirsig says ....Forces of creation/destruction.
The intellectual level has been around for thousands and thousands of years.
It was in this century where it finally emerged as the strongest value
influence for society....where it began trumping societies own values.
*****************
AS to the value of Metaphysics topic , Donny, I think the reason it atrophied
so long was that most philosophers became philosophologists, and because the
SOM assumptions were eventually taken for granted. Some day the DAM will
break open and a better paradigm will take its place. Meanwhile, it has
helped me reorient my life , change my thinking, and influence those around
me. The MOQ is a practical, pragmatic metaphysics. Haven't others of you
changed your lives (or broadened your horizons -which is really the same
thing) based on your beliefs?
****************
TO DAVID: Don't mind Glove's bark..... he is really a GOOD DOG......(private
joke....but me thinks Glove got it.) Plus he is my new neighbor!
As for intelligent snails....perhaps those Giant Sea Snails of Doctor
Doolittle
Seriously, read the mysticism threads at
http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Roger
PS For the record, I was not alone in not knowing about this repository of
posts. Highly recommended to any lurkers/new members out there.
I guess I am off to join the Pagan rituals!
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