Hello, LS.
Responces to Roger, Bodvar, David B., and (again) Roger.
ROGER wrote:
_____________
Donny, I am not sure how serious you are regarding your comment that
metaphysics is just for fun. The structural roots of metaphysics and
philosophy permeate throughout society and intellect. The starting
foundation
affects the initial frame of reference and the assumptions from which
they build.
_______________
Let me put it this way: Metaphysics is very un-serious business
TODAY. Now in the Enlightenment and the late 18th century -- w/ the
American and French revolutions -- certainly philosophy was a rather major
element -- a big mover and shaker behind society.
But starting at around 1830-ish a big shift took place. Philosophy
and (especially) metaphysics became the very epitome of a "mere classroom
abstraction," w/o much bering on the "real world," (and it is my belief
that we, as metaphysitions should take that idea of "in the REAL world"
very seriously). The position (the driving seat) formerly held by
metaphysics has today been given over to the social sciences: sociology,
psychology, social psychology, anthropology, political science, echonomic
theory.... The President has echonomic and social advisors but he does
not have a metaphysical advisor. That idea is rather laughable, isn't it?
A friend of mine, who was an achademic philosopher for many years,
used to say that at cocktale parties people would ask him what he did, and
he'd say, "I'm a metaphysition." They'd ask, "What's that?" and he'd say,
"Well, we're in charge of figuring out what really exists." In relating
these events he'd interject, "Now if that doesn't make you feel like an
ass I don't know what would." Finaly, he said, he just started telling
people he's a stand-up comidian.
I don't think metaphysitions have much impact on the world in
general -- the real world. If you're trying to be a reformer and
crusaider, I'd recomend you look into something more along the lines of
sociology or psychology. I don't think metaphysics will help you (And I
think this is close to Pirsig's sentaments as well. His Hindu teachers
might of been great metaphysitions... but their indiference to the Bomb
[later paralleled by the Narator's indiference to his son] angered him. He
wasn't ready to understand.)
As far as should you or I or anybody study metaphysics...
Joe Campbell, when asked why anyone should study myths, said, "I
don't believe in studying something because somebody tells you it's
important. If you can live your life w/o these things, fine, do so! But if
you try them out... it might catch you." I'm not saying that metaphysics
can't do anything for you (and that's not what Campbell was saying about
mythology); just that: Either it has value -for you- or it has none at
all.It's either part of your "bliss" -- your path to selfhood -- or it's
not, and if it's not it's not.
Please keep also in mind that my definition of metaphysics is
stricter than most people's on the squad. I don't equate metaphysics w/
just "world view" or, as the Germans say, *Weltbilder*. Every situation
projects a correct (moral) view of what's going on here, now (the
definition of being a sane, adult member of that society is the ability
to recognize this correct picture -- the same correct picture others of
that time, place and culture share), but (as Erving Goffman, I think,
observed) not every situation is about the what and how this correct
picture of events -- only metaphysics, for, that's what metaphysics is.
(That last paragraph is important. Read it again, if you will.)
BODVAR wrote:
_______________
The most simple characterization of Q-society is the
value of the whole at the cost of the part, so it starts lower down
the Q-biology than humankind. A baboon tribe is a stricter society
than anything human, but no Q-intellect is needed for them to
understand social signals. That was the the case of the proto-humans,
the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons and is probably the case to-day in
isolated tribes if there are any left.
______________
Let me explane that, how I see it, you don't have social values in
wolf packs or ape tribes... probably not in early cro-magnon tribes, but
I'm not an anthropologist.
These criters have "social groups" and "pack order," but I don't
think that's what costitutes the social level. In LILA, RMP talks about
the social level in terms of "the Giant." That's the key idea. Bodvar is
hitting on it when he speaks of sacroficing the parts for the whole... but
these criters (wolves, etc.) are worried about the species, continuing
there genetic line, procreation... This is still Darwinian values. Even
when ape tribes fight over turf that's a fight concerning food, survivle
and ultimatly survival (and procreation) of the fitest, you see?
Now w/ society, the Giant becomes a living thing of it's own. The
Giant that I like to think of (due to familiarity) is "The American Way."
There are lots of us over here who are ready and willing to fight and die
and sacrofice for the American way -- to protect and preserve our way of
life... so that it doesn't change even when we're dead and our children
and grandchildren have taken our places.
A (perhaps) subtil shift of focus has taken place here. It's not
just a mater of turf, food and women (the right to procreate) now; now we
fight over LIFESTYLES and IDEALS. Ideals like the free press, and
lifestyles like owning my own car and being able to drive it on down to
McDonalds whenever I want. THIS is the stuff we fight wars over, and the
coming-on of lifestyle wars and wars of ideals marks the emergance of
social values. Wolf packs don't do this. They arn't social entities. And
humans didn't do this until --about-- 10,000-or-so years ago.
Only homo-sapians become social entities -- generating/peopling
socities.
And, further, only societies generate/*embody* IntPoVs. The
emergance of the IntPoVs is when a society comits itself to live, change
and die by "the truth" (highest value ideas/worldviews). 1914-18.
You'll notice that what is pointedly left out here is talk about
"mind," "just thinking," "consciousness," "ego," the ghost in the machine,
etc. I think all of that bagage is really unhelpful here, and part of
what's nice about the MoQ is that it makes a move towards leaving it all
behind (though, IMHO, the above mentioned sociologist Erving Goffman
makes a cleaner brake from al that Cartisan/Freudian baggage.)
What is the mind? It's a CAPABILITY. A wolf, ape, Neandertha, bee,
ant,... all have the capability to think (w/ some degree of adeptitude or
another), just as a wolf has the capability of digesting food, an ape or
Neandertha the capability to move an arm, a bee the capability to fly...
"Mind" doesn't have it's own level any more than "arm-waving" or
digestion. I think if you miss that, you're heding towards a lower
quality (and messier) MoQ.
But what the heck do I know?
DAVID B. wrote:
______________
Paradoxically, Pirsig's quest was for "the ghost of rationality itself"
ZAAMM p.97 because that rationality had rendered the Western culture
hollow, empty and meaningless. He said it was "the genetic defect" of
our civilization. p.102
_____________
I think the "defect" w/ reason was that it wanted to be
out-of-accord w/ the world, unconnected to it. This is shown by the
Japaneese bycicle story... but more fundamentaly it's demonstrated in
first Phaedrus' then the Narator's separation from Chris. Pheadrus pursuit
leed him to a state where he could no longer even acknowledge and respond
to his family. And the Narator's Chataquwa creats a damaging scilence
between himself and the boy he travels w/. People who only read ZMM once,
and superficially, tend to think that Pheadrus sitting in front of the
wall has his climactic enlightenment. But, truly, enlightenment comes at
the end of the story when Chris and his father ride down the coast -- put
in-acourd w/ one-another. In Campbell's termanology: Pheadrus sin was the
Refusal of the Return, and the Return is as important and (Campbell
himself said) often more difficult than going out on the Adventure.
Finally, ROGER asked where did all the mystics go?
We're off in the Black Forest celebrating the Solstace w/ pagan
fanfar and much voo-doo a do.
(You know, I'd have liked to have been a druid if I were born
6-700 years earlier.... Oh, well. ;-) )
TTFN (ta-ta for now)
Donny
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