Hi Bodvar
thank you so much for taking your time to answer my email.
Bodvar:
You wrote on Fri 1 Jan. 1999
> during my reading and pondering, i have been consistently struck by
> the fact that cultural value, or the social level of the Metaphysics
> of Quality, seems to be the highest value we conceive of. our entire
> realities consist of social level values created by our interaction
> with our environment. in order to further understand this
> discrepency with the Metaphysics of Quality i feel Force of Value
> must be taken into consideration. this is my on-going attempt.
> please bear with any mistakes or omissions.
Bodvar:
...cultural value, or the social level.......?? I think that Pirsig
repeatedly refers to 'culture' as patterns of Intellect, in the
same way that societies are social patterns and organisms are
biological patterns.
Glove:
allow me to quote Pirsig a bit..."The new intellectualism looked to the
'common people' as a source of CULTURAL VALUES rather than to the old
Victorian European models." (Page 320, bantam paperback)
the intellect level grows from the social level and i suppose both levels
together could be representational of culture, if so desired. but in my
opinion, intellect patterns of value are individualistic by nature (directed
by underlying forces of value seeking "discreation", Dynamic freedom) while
social patterns of value are shared "agreements" between two or more
entities. social patterns of value could be described as "complementary",
while the intellect patterns of value are indicative of "individuality".
Bodvar:
Also do I object to the idea of atoms controlled
by forces. That evokes "matter" subject to natural laws. No, atoms
are the the inorganic patterns themselves. Full stop!
Glove: from my 1/1/99 email...
INORGANIC- we are unable to conceptualize what occurs here as far as force
of value is concerned. atoms are not controlled by the same forces of value,
according to Pirsig,
as the next three levels are.
Pirsig writes: (from Roger Parkers email)
<<" Biological and social and intellectual patterns are not the possession
of
substance. The laws that create and destroy these patterns are not the laws
of electrons and protons.......THE FORCES THAT CREATE AND DESTROY THESE
PATTERNS ARE THE FORCES OF VALUE">>
therefore, i leave the explanations of what is occurring at this level to
the quantum guys and simply assume "something" is happening there.
so you see Bodvar, i agree with your above statement. at least i think i
agree with
it. :)
Bodvar:
Risky Roger also nurtured this division of forces and their
manifestations, and I'm not against such a dichotomy IF ONLY WE
SEE IT AS INTELLECT SUPERIMPOSING ITSELF ON THE LOWER LEVELS.
Perhaps you see this Glove, but it doesn't sound like it. You make it
all so complicated.
Glove:
i do apologize for complicating things. that is not my intention and i do
see
where you are coming from. however, Forces of Value and Patterns of Value
are not the
same, and i feel you may be mixing the two in your reply. patterns of
value are static quality while forces of value are Dynamic in nature and
creates and discreates the patterns of value that make up our everyday
reality.
the question i am attempting to answer is HOW the intellect imposes itself
upon the other levels via underlying value forces. but much static latching
is needed, i fear.
best wishes,
glove
"...Instead of taking counsel of despair, I make bold to vary my statements,
in the faint hope that repeated
droppings may wear upon the stone, and that my formulas may seem less
obscure if surrounded by something
more of a 'mass' whereby to apperceive them." (William James, The Meaning of
Truth)
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