Bodvar and Glove,
Bodvar writes:
Also do I object to the idea of atoms controlled
by forces. That evokes "matter" subject to natural laws. No, atoms
are the the inorganic patterns themselves. Full stop!
Glove: from my 1/1/99 email...
INORGANIC- we are unable to conceptualize what occurs here as far as force
of value is concerned. atoms are not controlled by the same forces of
value,
according to Pirsig,
as the next three levels are.
Pirsig writes: (from Roger Parkers email)
<<" Biological and social and intellectual patterns are not the possession
of
substance. The laws that create and destroy these patterns are not the
laws
of electrons and protons.......THE FORCES THAT CREATE AND DESTROY THESE
PATTERNS ARE THE FORCES OF VALUE">>
therefore, i leave the explanations of what is occurring at this level to
the quantum guys and simply assume "something" is happening there.
so you see Bodvar, i agree with your above statement. at least i think i
agree with
it. :)
Bodvar and Glove,
Hope you don't mind f I jump in here.
If I have interpreted the sense of your discussion correctly I disagree
with Bodvar on the question of Quality. In my opinion Quality is inherent
in the physical universe and Humanity is just an artifact of the
overarching Quality. Quality came into being at the beginning and is not a
force. Quality is a result of the way that the Universe was organized
physically and represents the POSSIBILITIES for further organizational
complexity that were initially available to it. Whatever can happen will
happen. As the initial possibilities were taken advantage of the
proliferating organization presented Quality with a continually expanding
series of possibilities which were also taken advantage of. In this way
physical evolution reached the stage where biological organization became
possible at which time life evolved and resulted in us.
There is increasing speculation that the universe itself is a living
entity (see Mary's message). If Quality is viewed in this way we are
getting a clearer and clearer picture of the operation of Quality right
from the Big Bang.
I am leaning toward the belief that Quality is POSSIBILITY and that an
evolving universe was a foregone conclusion right from the start. This
does not mean that the exact progression of evolution was determined. The
increase in complexity made it impossible to predict the particular path
that evolution would take.
Whether we look at our bodies, the Earth, or our Galaxy, or the entire
Universe we see that these functions are maintaining themselves pretty far
from equilibrium. This is a property of life. When we reach equilibrium we
are dead.
Then along came Robert Pirsig and uncovered all of these relationships
and named it Quality. Its an amazing synthesis.
It is obvious to me that the function of Quality as it concerns Humanity
is different from the function of Universal Quality. The two can be at odds
with one another at times. I can't remember the details now but I seem to
recall that this is one of the soft spots of Pirsig's philosophy. He gets
in a little trouble when he switches between Universal Quality and Human
Quality. Did anyone else get this feeling?
I have been down with bronchitis for a few days and am bored to death so
be tolerant of the rambling. I can just see Bodvar exploding. Lets have fun
with Human Quality :+). Ken
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