I had written a review of David's mighty post of 12 Jan., but the
poor guy seems to have his hands full so I'll leave him alone and
spend this day's ration on following up a lost thread with .
GLOVE
who wrote (11 Jan):
> anything you can name is part of the social level. the absraction that you
> cannot name is part of the intellect. that is the part of us that perceives
> undefinable Quality. we simply "know" what Quality is. thats about as basic
> as i can be right now.
Hi Glove and Group.
I have gathered the impression from your writings that there
are two divisions BELOW the Dynamic-Static one: 1) The two lower
levels are seen as "matter" and the two upper as "mind". 2) A social
level that covers everything (we can name), and an Intellect that
pervades it all, but still is a separate realm.
The first grouping is similar to Pirsig's attempt to make the
subject-object division explicable from a MOQ point of view. He says
that matter and life can be seen as the objective half of reality,
society and intellect the subjective half, but he does not for one
single moment mean that that division is valid within the MOQ.
Your next dualism which attributes some mystical otherworldliness to
the intellect, totally different from anything else, I find untenable
as it reintroduces the mind-matter dichotomy into the MOQ. I'm not
condescending, but I know exactly what motivates this effort from
your side. I respect it; it's terribly important, but listen to my go
at this obstacle.
PREFACE.
There has been talk of Pirsig not being original (Lithien hints to
Nietszche) but none of the candidates start with a similar
metaphysical revolution. Except one: Charles Peirce who does a
similar reshuffling and ends up with a trinity version much like
Phaedrus of ZMM. Peirce also rejects subjects and objects and calls
his groundstuff "signs" (Greek=semios) or semiotics. His thesis is
that there is no world (objects) until a subject has interpreted a
sign. Phaedrus' is similar except for calling it Quality creating
subjects and objects.
Now, there are many in this group who put great emphasis on this
so-called "quality event". IMHO the full-fledged MOQ leaves this
behind except as a mystical remnant, but the semiotics counterpart
may have something to say to those who can't really leave that first
version of Pirsig's metaphysics. So I will try a Value=Signal
approach......applying my SOLAQI on top of that.
****************
The whole of the MOQ static part may be regarded as signal and
signal interpretation, so to start at the Inorganic level the
matter particles are forces interpreted, but bear in mind
the above "...can be regarded". The division of forces/matter
or signal/signal interpretation is Q-Intellect looking down on
this level through its S-O glasses. It cries out for a subject-object
division everywhere, but to the Inorganic level no such division
exist. Matter is this INTERACTION.
Biology breaks free from the Inorganic strictures, but carries along
the signal-and-signal-interpretation and brings it all to a new
level of refinement. Now matter is the signals. Even the simplest
organism send messages internally and senses such from its
environment to sustain life. Yes, this SENSATION is life. But trust
Intellect; it peers down its nose and imposes a division of signals
and a subject (an "intelligence") decoding signals.
It is on this Biological signalling/value level that the Social
signalling/value level rise. More developed life forms meant more
advanced signalling means: separate neural network and brains. These
organisms grew in sophistication of signal interpretation. It grew
through rude sensation to subtler forms of facial and body
postures that abstracted the sensation into something that may be
called EMOTION. Bared fangs and raised tails were enough to raise
fear or lust or whatever. The society was born, but again; Intellect
wants a intelligent subject interpreting social signs, but at that
level those are absent.
Social signalling/value/intelligence developed in step with Biology.
With the first humanoids the abstraction process surpassed the smell
and snarl level and became smiles and tears and laughter which
conveyed emotions that conveyed sensations, but were no longer
understood by other animals. Finally (with who knows - Neanderthals?)
language - the ultimate signal system - was born. It bypassed
all previous means, abstracted them: words raised emotions that
raised sensations so there is no sudden mind-matter break at any
quality level only a rise in signal sophistication.
For ages (I recently saw a report that a new find put humanoids back
another notch) language was a social servant, but as Phaedrus of ZMM
explain, there came a time when its awesome abstraction capability
started scrutinizing the common social myth and the Intellectual
value level was born - not fullfledged and in the front seat at once
but doing a lot of backseat driving first.
OK Glove what I am driving at is that I suspect that your Intellect
is an abstraction more like mind as different from concrete
matter. What I have tried to "prove" is that existence is a gradual
rise in abstraction which at Intellect reaches such a refinement that
it looses touch with its roots and declares itself reality (SOM), but
as demonstrated: each step builds on the previous level and
nowhere does abstraction leave for an otherworldly realm.
I would have liked to comment on the rest of your interesting post,
but this is too far gone. Looking forward to your and anyone else's
reaction.
Bodvar
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