Hi Bodvar and everyone
as promised, here are some comments on your email of 1/8/99:
http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/9901/0044.html
some excerpts from that email...
Bodvar:
I tend to make the social patterns more basic than you ...and even
Pirsig! Somewhere he speaks about Indian killing and torture as
Biological value, but I think an Indian tribe was a more basic
society than for instance modern USA, and that the said acts were
what a warrior had to do - and endure - to fulfil the [social] code
of honour, not any "bloodlust".
Glove:
anything you can name is part of the social level. the absraction that you
cannot name is part of the intellect. that is the part of us that perceives
undefinable Quality. we simply "know" what Quality is. thats about as basic
as i can be right now.
it seems to me that some killing could be biological level, spur
of the moment "blood-lust" while other types are more sanctified by society
as being moral and just (the Native American warrior, modern day police
force, "holy" wars, etc.) done for honourable social level causes, and
others are
pre-meditated cold-blooded intellectual acts. i think it is the third that
most concerned Pirsig (dont you agree?) when he talks at length of the
intellect
coming into dominance around the turn of the century.
Bodvar:
Does the
Dynamic/Static division continue into the static realm? It's a subtle
thing, earlier I used the wave/water metaphor, but in an "analytical"
sense I don't think so. Once the crystallizations have formed they
are incurable static and the DQ can only overcome it by creating a
new level...which in turn becomes a static prison, and so on.
Glove:
i think we may disagree here. it is my opinion that there are no incurably
static patterns of value...only that which we perceive as incurable stasis.
with this assumption in mind, once again i am led to the conclusion that,
since we cannot perceive of Dynamic Quality directly, there is no
Dynamic/static "division" that we can recognize as such. yet there
must be both Dynamic and static quality working in complementary, for our
perception of the universe
to exist in the first place...for us to value anything.
at the same time, it must be realized that even though Dynamic/static are
complementary to each other, they are in no way "equal halves" of reality.
even though we need both, Dynamic Quality is the undefinable "something"
that is creating/discreating static quality patterns of value in a
regenerating fashion. the levels arise in an evolutionary way as a
consequence of value forces.
Bodvar:
"Creates and discreates" (or Pirsig's creates and destroys). Look to
Biology. If you mean that the death of an organism is "discreation" I
have no objection, the BiPoV itself is not affected. I will be
looking forward to your reply.
Glove:
looking to the biological level i make these assumptions:
1) the "form" of biological entities is not contained within the individual
organisms, rather the individual organisms are contained by the "form". this
leads away from the classical mechanistic viewpoint.
2) creative and destructive forces of value are at work with and co-mingling
with static patterns of value resulting in a self-regenerating,
self-substaining and yet ultimately constrained and constricted
dance-of-life.
3) the biological level contains a "complementary" within itself, and that
which we perceive as biological level "life" is the result of that
complementary.
which brings me to a very important point about Force of Value/pattern of
value thinking. by focusing exclusively on static patterns of value only one
picture of reality arises. in my opinion, we need a "two-position" point of
view that complementary-type thinking offers. thats why i think there is
much value in exploring Dynamic creation and discreation as complementary to
patterns of value.
be that as it may however, i find i am unable to agree or disagree with you
that the death of an organism is discreation. it seems to me you are saying
that the biological level itself is not discreated yet the individual
organism is, which lends credence to Rupert Sheldrake's morphogenetic field
theory.
death is the absence of the possibility for the biological level to function
as an individuality event. perhaps like you say, whatever creative force of
value that made up the Quality Event of life has "disintegrated" into the
mirror of itself, discreative force of value. however, i feel that death is
a non-conceptual state and that we cannot even conceive of what death is as
individuals. all creative AND discreative biological patterns of value have
ceased to have value. therefore death is not strictly only a discreated
biological pattern of value. it has ceased to have value force at all in the
static biological sense. "discreation" is part of life, not death.
in conclusion, allow me a look to the intellect once again.
the intellect's work seems to be analyzing and constraining the
possibilities of life. what is this function of analyzing? it is taking an
overwhelming amount of sensory imput via the senses and funneling it into
managable units of constrained events...the Quality Event. do you agree? if
so, then a "germ" of intellect must exist before the social level is even
conceived of.
this leads to the idea of the intellect as conceptually existing in nonspace
and imaginary time, the complementary of which results in our classical
analytical thinking in our Western culture, which ties in very well with
your own SOTAQI theory though not so well with your SOLAQI. since the
Quality Event itself is not really a "thing" but a complementary; "it"
arises locally, or individualistically, only.
any shared intellect pattern[s] of value resulting in agreement with others
becomes a created social level pattern of value arising precessionally, or
in irrelevant and obtuse ways, from the destruction of priorly held social
patterns of value. creation comes with sharing...its a by-product, so to
speak.
Bodvar, your comments give me much to ponder upon and these replies i offer
are only stepping stones to something "better" i am sure. as always, its
been a real pleasure sharing with you.
best wishes
glove
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