ROGER REPLIES TO BO ON VALUE FORCES BY LOOPING BACK TO SANTIAGO
To Bodvar, and anyone interested in the interrelations between life, society,
SOM, and intellect:
Bo, I was out of touch with the squad when you responded to my Santiago post
last month. I have been waiting for a chance to continue the discussion……Your
recent ‘Value force’ post reminded me so much of my concept of the Santiago
theory, that I went back and re-read Fritjof Capra’s version of this theory of
life and cognition. Before, moving on though, I want to reinforce that I agree
wholeheartedly with your conclusions.
I am not familiar with Norrestranders interpretation of the Santiago theory ,
but your description of it is add odds with what Capra writes. You may be
right that Maturana and Varella are not so enlightened, and that Capra doesn’t
quite put it within the concept of the MOQ, but with just a "nudge," I think
I can push it over. Below is an MOQ version of the Santiago interpretation of
life, language, society, consciousness and intellect:
Value interaction is all that exists
Complex inorganic patterns can form self perpetuating sytems
Life is the self-perpetuating adaptation of a pattern within its environment.
This adaptation ‘brings forth’ a world. Bacteria value sunlight and bring it
forth by swimming to it. Monkeys in the low value environment of a leopard
bring forth the world of safety within the trees. Value creates the subjects
and objects.
Communication is coordinated adaptation. The ‘CLIMB CALL’ sends all monkeys
up a tree. This call is an abstract short cut which coordinates responses. It
can have instinctive and learned components. Due to the coordination and
shared contexts, these monkeys now begin to bring forth a shared world.
Language comes about in those beings advanced enough to communicate about
communication (isolated to man and some crude beginnings in higher primates).
‘Son, at the word "CLIMB", I want you to scurry up fast like this…….’
Language is one form of abstract communication.
Objects are another form of advanced abstaction of communication. ‘Son,
"TREES" are those things we climb.’
Subjects, self awareness and consciousness emerge when we objectify ourselves.
‘"I" am the being climbing the tree’
Similar to Solaqi -- consciousness, subjects, objects, and language are all
complex abstractions. They are mutually dependent and intertwined. Societies
share common contexts and languages upon which all of these are built. The
intellectual level is a further abstraction and manipulation of abstractions
into simpler and more consistant patterns. ‘Trees are fractal patterns’.
Intellect can only arise out of society, but a socially-created individual is
quite capable of solitary intellectual thought (Donny, are you still out
there?)
Bo, even though it uses different terms and emphasizes different issues, I
think you will agree that this is still similar in many ways to your MOQ
interpretation of Charles Pierce.
Roger
PS: Every time I bring in an outside intellectual concept, someone in the
squad either accuses me of trying to redefine the MOQ, or explains that this
theory is ‘tinged’ with the treaded SOM disease, and is therefore dangerous.
Lighten up! All I am suggesting is that this intellectual theory is
compatible within the MOQ, and can possibly offer insights on some complicated
issues. Remember, this is what the intellectual level is supposed to do. If
anything is in opposition to the MOQ (and I don’t see what is above), it can
possibly lead to some new understanding of the theory , or (God forbid)of the
MOQ. And as for the SOM disease, even our explanations of the MOQ share this
affliction.
The three posts referenced on this topic, for anyone interested in following
the thread are:
http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/9812/0385.html
http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/9812/0413.html
http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/9901/0163.html
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