David,
Thanks for your post. I think I see things more clearly, but there
remains a fundamental disagreement between myself and -- dare I say --
you and most of the list. There is a bit of confusion here and I would
like to be more concise.
Much of what I read here are "levels" "levels" and more "levels". I
have two arguments :
1. Because we experience truth, we do not need to explain it. We
desperately need to be sensitive to it. When our mind is open,
nonjudgemental and sensitive, value just is.
Sit on hot stoves and we know it is bad.
2. Application of the "levels" appears arbitrary or at best, easily
manipulated.
This is how I interpret Pirisig:
1. Life is better than non-life.
2. Groups of live are better than one life.
3. Any reasonable idea (no definition of reasonable) is potentially
better than 1 and 2.
4. Anything left out could be better than 1, 2 and 3 if they result in a
change for the better. But better is undefineable.
What a mess!
It seems to me the intellectual "level" can be easily manipulated. If
someone likes one thing or another, they make it an idea and put it
above other levels. If someone else does not like the same thing, they
make it biological or social and put their idea ahead of it.
> So one of the tests to determine the "quality" of an idea, or anything
else, is to
> look at the results of it in the "real world". By this test, the
NAZIs
> were obvious failures.
Exactly!. We know Natzism is bad, not because "this level dominating
that level" but because we FELT the bad quality from it. Forget about
the levels.
Looking at your quote above, could not we also test the value of the MOQ
in the real world!
That is where my neo-natzi example came to play. I was showing how the
MOQ fails the test. Suppose one was completely unbiased towards Natzism
and only looked towards to the MOQ's rank ordering of values. They hear
this "Natzism has been one of the most dynamic intellectual concepts of
the 20th century. We have a means to overcome the black and Jewish
social levels which have been polluting our society." Without
experience, how do you interpret this. If you need experience, then why
not just forget about the levels in the first place.
See how I twisted the argument? If I like Natzism, I make it an idea.
If I like democracy, I make it an idea. If I dislike Natzism, I make it
social level. If I dislike democracy I make it a social level. If I
dislike Clinton, I make cheating a biological urge. If I like Clinton,
I make cheating an intellectual decision to overcome society. The
"levels" haven not FUNDAMENTALLY changed my view on any life issues.
Are we really serious about this stuff? I think we should be! To
really, really get into the truth of anything, one must look to his/her
experiences without any interference or religion, ideology, cultural
tradition, or preconceived notion of "levels". Experience it first
hand, with a free mind, which means love will be in your heart. If we
don't codemn, but open mindedly
watch videos of natzism,interview Jews, blacks and so forth, we will
gain a real understanding. If people would have took this approach,
Natzism would never have grown. I don't think the German population
hated Jews. Their ambivilant insensitivity to Jews was caused by mental
images such as power glory and so forth. When Germans were made to look
at what they had done, I am sure a fundamental change occured --
regret.
We need to change ourselves -- fundamentally. To do that, we must be
one with reality not one with Pirsig's levels. Once we conclude and
cease to cease to question what is good, it is lost. We cling to some
ism (Pirsigism) and lose touch with reality.
My question: isn't it better to forget about levels and focus on
sharpening our observations, in becoming acutely aware and sensitive so
that we are one with Quality. See today's post on evil for about this
approach...
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