From: jhmau (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue Nov 19 2002 - 17:32:35 GMT
>> p.229
>"At this moment, asleep, "Lila" doesn't exist anymore then a
>program exists when a computer is switched off. The intelligence
>of her cells had switched Lila off for the night, exactly
>the way a hardware switch turns off a computer program."
>
> JOE:I verymuch would like to have a hardware switch like a computer has to
> turn
> off my program while asleep!
>
> ERIN: So you are arguing "joe" is up an running while
> you are asleep?
Joe:Yes! I dream, I move, I solve problems, and only a part of "joe" is
non-operational. I am able in my sleep to process the dynamic input
necessary for the memory of dreams, and some bodily activity. IMO the
instinctive sense that apprehends Dynamic Quality controls sleep. "Sleep"
is frequently used as a metaphor and the dq communicated is applicable in
many areas: "Asleep at the wheel," "daydreaming," etc. Sleep ignores only
only portions of "joe." I act from "conscious" and "sub-conscious"
impulses.
> JOE:I think the Author was expressing a universal
> want in the character
> "Lila."
>
> ERIN: which is...
Joe:At times sleep is characterized as "the little death." The trade in
"sleeping pills" is active, I am anxious about sleep. A switch I can
control might be more useful than pills for sleep to relieve the fatigue I
feel. I want to be in control is IMO an universal want. Maybe "switch" is
a bad analogy for control of instinct.
> JOE: Balance that allows randomness to function, is a
> better switch than off/on. Sleep comes as a 'valued new pattern.' (I
> apologize for the plagarism, but I so admire your formulation, Maggie.)
>
> ERIN: explain the difference of balance while you
> are awake and balance while you are asleep...or
> are you arguing there is no difference?
Joe:When I am awake I can interfere with "balance" by my activity. A dogma
that existence is divided into subjective and objective creates much static!
IMO when Wittgenstein writes: "After several unsuccesfulattempts to weld my
results together into such a whole, I realized that I should never succeed.
The best that I could write would never be more than philosophical remarks;
my thoughts were soon crippled if I tried to force them on in any single
direction against their natural inclination. ----And this was, of course,
connected with the very nature of the investigation. For this compels us to
travel over a wide field of thought criss-cross in every direction. -----The
philosophical remarks in this book are, as it were, a number of sketches of
landscapes which were made in the course of these long and involved
journeyings" I don't think he was seeing no "balance" in his remarks, only
that he couldn't identify the balance. My dogma interferes with my
"balance" I become unbalanced.
When I am asleep instinct controls my "balance." If by my activity while
awake pursuing dogma I have damaged my instincts then my balance in sleep
will be faulty. I decide to pursue "balance" while I am awake. If my
education has twisted my instinctive sense, perhaps good intentions for
"balance" will enable my instinct to heal in sleep.
Can I influence my instincts? I can't hit a ball thrown from sixty feet
going 95 MPH! After rejecting objective-subjective existence dogma, I am
forced by logic to instinctively sense dq. I am healing a damaged instinct.
> DMB: Its interesting that the author attributes a similar "off" switch
during
> sex
> >too.
>
> ERIN: so you think "DMB" can be turned off during sex and while
> sleeping?
>
> DMB:(The quote is from the chapter [15] where they do "it".) He watches it
> >happen to him. He tries to stay in the twilight between sleep and
> >wakefulness in order to ponder the strange power of sex. Bottom of the
> >ocean. She's that girl on the streetcar. The one who has always been
judging
> >him, for millions of years. These forces have nothing to do with you or
your
> >"real" identity. They swallow your identity. Obliterate it for a time.
> >Orgasms are like that too. Poof, you're gone.
>
> Erin: yeah part of my interest in this quote is the me-you relation
> he's playing with throughout the chapter.
>
> PETER:>I feel here, biological patterns are going about there business and
> have
> >dominated the social and intellectual aspects of the river of patterns
that
> >may be said to constitute Lila. When Lila dies the Inorganic patterns of
> >quarks, protons, electrons, etc. will go about their business. While
asleep
> >the Biological Lila goes about its business. At different times,
different
> >aspects of patterning dominate as they swirl around a particular Dynamic
> >vortex in the flowing stream of reality.
> >
>
> Erin: well its argued that different patterns
> are dominating awhile awake too.
> So what is the difference between bio dominating
> while awake and dominating while asleep?
>
> PATRICK: I wonder what your specific question is.
>
> Erin: well some of these points touched upon it...
> its more of trying to clear up what this means..
> I will sum it up my question the end of this post.
>
> PATRICK: How can the program Lila (or Phaedrus or Robert)
> know the hardware?
> "They
> were the leaves of a tree and knew as little as these leaves, why their
> cells that had created them or why they created them so similar." I
> believe this is a Kantian thought: There are conditions that enable us
> ('I's) to be here, but we can't fully know these conditions, as a matter
> of principle...
>
> ERIN: yes this is getting at what I was interested in..
> Pirsig is hinting at times these can be aware of each
> other and in conflict..
> PIRSIG:
> says " That what he had seen that he was trying
> to hang on to now, this confluence where the mental and the
> biological patterns are both awake and aware of each other
> and in conflict"
>
>
> Okay I am a bad forum moderator because I am kind of
> changing the quote I am interested in (its related to
> the other quote but this one is getting at better what
> I am intersted in)
>
> I was intially interested in whether people thought
> there was an "off" during sleep and any thoughts about
> this in relation to time.
> I was just sent a couple days ago a book by a friend that has part
> of a theme at what I am interested in (kind of wierd huh)...it goes
> into this idea of being "awaketime" "dreamtime" and
> IN BETWEEN these two is "drivetime".
> I'm not done with the book so can't give full description of
> "drivetime".
> But this is exactly what caught my eye about this quote.
> This idea of on/off.
>
> So the quote that gets more at what I am interested in is this
> pg227 Chap 15
> "Sometimes between sleep and waking there's a zone where
> the mind gets a glimpse of old active subconscious worlds."
> So I guess my question is what is this zone?
> Somewhere between me/you, awake/asleep, on/off?
>
> erin
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Nov 19 2002 - 17:27:22 GMT