RE: MD On Faith

From: Mark Steven Heyman (
Date: Tue Oct 19 2004 - 17:00:45 BST

  • Next message: Scott Roberts: "RE: MD On Faith"

    Hi Chuck,

    On this issue, I think you and I are are closer together than are Sam
    and I, but I really don't understand the level of your animosity.
    Such vehemence only weakens your position, IMO. Can't you just
    delete messages you don't want to read, or set your software to
    filter them out?

    As for Ian leaving, I'll miss his input but, really, this act of
    announcing one's departure then exiting stage left with a huff is a
    bit childish. Someone else chewed the scenery with it earlier this
    year, and my reaction then was the same: BFD. Like the whole
    freakin' operation is gonna grind to a halt without them.

    Anyway, just my two cents.

    Mark Steven Heyman (msh)

    InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
    Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
    Web Site:
    "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is 
    everything."  -- Henri Poincare'
    On 19 Oct 2004 at 6:09, Chuck Roghair wrote:
    Sam, you said:
    "Hmm. I once read a description of the creed as being 'mystical
    theology defined dogmatically', which I think sums it up. If you come
    at the creed expecting a list of beliefs then that is what you will
    find. They need to be understood within the context of an ongoing
    faith tradition, and not abstracted (again, a SOMish pursuit)."
    And then:
    "It's the same as a zen koan. If you have to ask what is the sound of
    one hand clapping, then you haven't got it - it strikes you as 'at
    least a contradictory description, if not outright gibberish'. Quite
    <Chuck responds:>
    Are you saying that the following is the Catholic equivalent to "What
    is the sound of one hand clapping?":
    I believe in God, the Father almighty,  
    creator of heaven and earth.  
    I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,  
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,  
    born of the Virgin Mary,  
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,  
    was crucified, died, and was buried;  
    he descended to the dead.  
    On the third day he rose again;  
    he ascended into heaven,  
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,  
    and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.  
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,  
    the holy catholic church,  
    the communion of saints,  
    the forgiveness of sins,  
    the resurrection of the body,  
    and the life everlasting. 
    Is that your position, Sam?  Comparing "What is the sound of one hand
    clapping?" to what is essentially a loyalty oath?  And you're a
    I've sat through thousands of masses and heard armies of Catholic
    zombies respond dutifully in mechanical cadence over and over.  Even
    as a child, I saw through the a whole charade as empty, meaningless
    This is how religion at the Social Level is attempting to dominate
    individuals at the Intellectual level which is the real immoral act
    and a true sin.  Calling the Apostle's creed a Zen Koan is just a 
    Sam, you are the sinner!  
    That creed is nothing, if not a literal list of beliefs.  If you 
    can't acknowledge that fact, at the very least, I see little point in 
    any further discussion.
    This is why the MoQ is losing folks like Ian who are genuine
    proponents of Pirsig's original vision.
    Pushing the agenda of institutionalized religion here is a travesty
    and I'm tired of it too.  Please take it elsewhere.
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