RE: MD On Faith

From: Scott Roberts (
Date: Tue Oct 19 2004 - 17:02:20 BST

  • Next message: Ian Glendinning: "Re: MD On Faith"


    You started this thread, remember? And you started it with a very broad
    attack on religion. I belong to no religious organization, but know enough
    about it to defend it from your over-generalized attack. Now you accuse
    religion's defenders of "pushing their agenda" in this forum. In short, you
    think it is ok to attack faith, but it is not allowable for faith's
    defenders to speak in reply. Is this your idea of high quality intellectual

    - Scott

    > [Original Message]
    > From: Chuck Roghair <>
    > To: <>
    > Date: 10/19/2004 9:10:09 AM
    > Subject: RE: MD On Faith
    > Sam:
    > Sam, you said:
    > "Hmm. I once read a description of the creed as being 'mystical theology
    > defined dogmatically', which I think sums it up. If you come at the creed
    > expecting a list of beliefs then that is what you will find. They need to
    > understood within the context of an ongoing faith tradition, and not
    > abstracted (again, a SOMish pursuit)."
    > And then:
    > "It's the same as a zen koan. If you have to ask what is the sound of one
    > hand clapping, then you
    > haven't got it - it strikes you as 'at least a contradictory description,
    > not outright
    > gibberish'. Quite so."
    > <Chuck responds:>
    > Are you saying that the following is the Catholic equivalent to "What is
    > sound of one hand clapping?":
    > I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    > creator of heaven and earth.
    > I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
    > who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    > born of the Virgin Mary,
    > suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    > was crucified, died, and was buried;
    > he descended to the dead.
    > On the third day he rose again;
    > he ascended into heaven,
    > he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    > and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    > I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    > the holy catholic church,
    > the communion of saints,
    > the forgiveness of sins,
    > the resurrection of the body,
    > and the life everlasting.
    > AMEN
    > Is that your position, Sam? Comparing "What is the sound of one hand
    > clapping?" to what is essentially a loyalty oath? And you're a priest?
    > I've sat through thousands of masses and heard armies of Catholic zombies
    > respond dutifully in mechanical cadence over and over. Even as a child, I
    > saw through the a whole charade as empty, meaningless posturing.
    > This is how religion at the Social Level is attempting to dominate
    > individuals at the Intellectual level which is the real immoral act and a
    > true sin. Calling the Apostle's creed a Zen Koan is just a lie; Sam, you
    > are the sinner!
    > That creed is nothing, if not a literal list of beliefs. If you can't
    > acknowledge that fact, at the very least, I see little point in any
    > discussion.
    > This is why the MoQ is losing folks like Ian who are genuine proponents of
    > Pirsig's original vision.
    > Pushing the agenda of institutionalized religion here is a travesty and
    > tired of it too. Please take it elsewhere.
    > Chuck
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